You are techY podcast

Ellen (00:00):

You are listening to the You are techY podcast, episode number 86.

Voiceover (00:08):

Welcome to the, You are techY podcast where it’s all about growing in your techy-ness. So you can find the tech job of your dreams. And now your host technology learning coach Ellen Twomey.

Ellen (00:27):

So many moms returning to work have asked me how to get hired in a job that pays well, but also allows them to be the mom they want to be. And I’ve seen so many make the mistake of taking a job, teaching English at 3:00 AM for $15 an hour. And that’s just backwards because your skills are highly valuable nd so is your time.

Ellen (00:51):

That’s why I put together a free training to help you jumpstart your tech career by learning about the field of UX design. So you don’t waste another minute on one more side hustle that isn’t a career, and doesn’t give you the flexibility and income your family needs. I hope you’re listening when this episode is released because I only offer this training twice a year. Join me live Wednesday, August 25th at 7:00 PM. Eastern for this helpful and interactive free training, three strategies to jumpstart your UX design career. Sign up at youaretechy.com. That’s Y-O-U-A-R-E-T-E-C-H-Y.com. I’ll See you there.

Ellen (01:30):

Erin Ziebart is a UX designer, a people person, and a problem solver. She’s also a star. You are a techy student. She loses confidence. She calls herself out when her confidence slips and she takes bold action to live the life of her dreams. Erin gets paid. That’s what she does. We’ll talk more about that. In our interview, Erin began her career as a community manager for the American cancer society. She also started her own photography business. About a decade ago. She was formerly a stay-at-home mom with a few side hustles. She now works as a freelance UX designer, serving clients as a type, a creative focused on building meaningful experiences through design. Erin holds a bachelor of arts in ministry with a minor in business administration from Fresno Pacific University. She resides in Oregon with her husband mark and their eight year old son Cooper, Erin, welcome to the podcast.

Erin (02:27):

Thanks Ellen. I’m so happy to be here. I’m so happy to have you.

Ellen (02:31):

We’re going to dive into the first question. You’ve recently started your freelance career and you got hired for your goal rate of $45 an hour. How did you do that, Erin?

Erin (02:42):

So there’s a short answer and a long answer.

Ellen (02:45):

Give us the short version then the long.

Erin (02:46):

Okay. The short answer is I asked for $45. Now I got $45 an hour.

Ellen (02:52):

I love the short answer.

Erin (02:53):

The long answer is I learned UX skills through You are techy and a ton of reading. I gained confidence through mentorship and coaching and listening to podcasts, and I produce assets for my portfolio and I built relationships through networking and building my community that led to paying projects.

Ellen (03:15):

I love it. I wanted to be specific with the rate because that was the rate I returned at. Right. So where did you get that number from? Like, was it for, is it for me or did you D did you always have that number and is it significant to you?

Erin (03:30):

Well, I got it from you, but also I got it from all of the job postings that I’ve looked at over the last year and a half and all of the interviews and talking to others. Um, and it seemed like a fair entry-level rate for what I can offer them, knowing that I bring a lot of value from my past experiences, so I’m not straight out of school. Um, so I felt like I was able to ask for and worthy of that rate.

Ellen (04:04):

And when you first started on this journey, did that rate seem really accessible to you where you really comfortable with that amount?

Erin (04:12):

No, not at all. I mean, you’re like, no, no, it seemed like a huge mountain.

Ellen (04:19):

Like how could I ever get there?

Erin (04:22):

Right. And that just seemed so far off and inaccessible, right. Because a higher level of pay means a lot for my family and it means a lot for us, um, and our future. And so it wasn’t just that hourly rate. It was this whole change in our life. And what would that mean for us? Yeah, it means a lot more on the results side. Like, okay, now, now, now we have this now what? Right. But sometimes the coachees, you know, humans, all of us that we feel like the rate is tied to our self value.

Ellen (04:58):

Can you speak a little bit to that?

Erin (04:59):

You know, I was, uh, I’ve had a photography business and so I am not as afraid of asking for the value of what it’s worth and being told. No, because I know that my time is very valuable and I’m bringing quality skills to the table. And so there will be people who are willing to pay that and there’ll be people who are not willing to pay that. And that’s okay. So it’s not really about me, but it’s about what this value is, um, in the industry and what I am bringing for them. So my experience having that business has really helped me. I love it. That’s great. Thank you for sharing that because I think there are a lot of people out there listening who understand that sometimes we feel like we’re not worth that. And of course, in coaching, we always talk about the, um, how it’s, it’s, what the skill is worth, not what we’re worth, but of course, being able to communicate that that’s a special expertise of yours, but you’re saying it’s because you’ve had experience of it. It is. And also, I mean, I, I struggled with that in the beginning because being new and learning something new and doing new things, since I didn’t have experience when I was new, it was hard to imagine quote, unquote being worth that rate or even more. Um, but I think the experiences that I’ve had gave me more confidence, the farther in that I got.

Ellen (06:26):

Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Okay. Tell us a little bit about your journey and like, how did it start out and how did you end up where you are now and, um, even touch on the beginning, like after you graduated college, did you think you’d be doing this and, and a little bit on, on those aspects too?

Erin (06:43):

So I was ever one of those kids that knew what they wanted to do when they grew up. So it wasn’t like I was chomping at the bit to be a doctor or an astronaut or anything like that. I just, I didn’t know. Right. And I, wasn’t in a huge hurry to have to leave home right after college. I went to community college for two years because I didn’t know what I wanted to do and I didn’t want to waste time and money.

Erin (07:06):

So I took the time to figure it out. And I was always a people person. I always loved people. I was always interested in people’s stories. And, um, I was always interested in creative pursuits and I didn’t ever have a dream job because my dream job didn’t exist at the time. My dream job was to be a UX designer. And, but in high school actually, um, at graduation, I won the computer science award for being the top student in, um, coding. And it was something that was really interesting to me, but I didn’t know women in the field. I didn’t know girls pursuing that degree at the time. Um, from my background in my world, I didn’t see that. And so I didn’t pursue it. Wow. Through college, I discovered a real passion for ministry Christian ministry because it’s people-based and my degree was about how to help people solve their problems, how to serve people, how to create events that are interesting to people, how to create programs that people want to engage with.

Erin (08:12):

And, um, so it was really a wonderful experience to get that degree. And I did work in that field for three years, being young. I realized maybe I need to grow in my personal development before I can help all these people who have serious, you know, problems. I felt like I’m a little bit unprepared for that aspect of it. And so it was a good segue into nonprofit work, which was also serving people and recruiting volunteers through the American cancer society planning events. And I really enjoyed that, but around oh 7 0 8, the economy started tanking and I lost my job at the American cancer society. It was that position was eliminated statewide. I met my husband, I got married. I moved to Oregon from California. Yeah. And it just seemed like a great time to pursue my true interests at the time, which was photography.

Erin (09:07):

And I did that. I built a business or two and, um, really enjoyed my time. I’m a self-taught photographer. So I learned all the skills on my own, um, from videos and, and reading online. Um, so it was really cool to teach myself a technical skill, like how a digital camera works and all the different types of cameras and lenses and running a business and Adobe suite, you know, Photoshop skills, presenting albums to clients. It, it all goes together. Um, the event planning that I learned before really helped me manage shooting weddings and large crowds and keeping people happy, um, under emotionally tense situations like weddings, right? And so it’s all, it’s all kind of led to. Um, I had my son and I had the opportunity to stay home with him and I will always be grateful for that. Um, it was such a wonderful time to be a stay at home mom and invest in his life, um, to help build him up and let him know that he’s loved.

Erin (10:17):

And I was there for him and I know not everybody has that opportunity or, or even wants that to make that choice. But for me it was the right thing. And I’m super grateful that I had that time. Um, I even became a teacher at his preschool as a way to make a little bit of money and be near him. And that was wonderful. And even that is serving people. These parents are sending their most precious commodity to me and I, and I am investing in their education and, you know, so it all kind of led to UX design. Um, around 2019, I took a full stack web developer course because I’d been kind of helping my husband look for jobs and seeing, wow, tech pays great. He’s in tech. And I said, okay, there’s gotta be something I can do here. There has to be, this pays too well for me. Right.

Ellen (11:08):

Right. Exactly. And the flexibility

Erin (11:10):

It’s like, no, wait a minute. This sounds good to me. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, I took a full stack web developer course and I enjoyed parts of it. I really loved the coding, the HTML and CSS, but finding error in code, isn’t really aligned with my personality to be a web developer or a full stack developer, but I liked learning about it. And, um, that’s kind of where I landed. So I found you in the midst of me taking that course, I found you our techy, the Facebook group, and I met you. And then you suggested that I look into UX design and I said, what is this? And as soon as I found it, I thought, okay, I finally know what I want to be. I grow up. Yay. I’m so glad I love it. Everything I’ve ever done has been about connecting with people, solving problems and creating beautiful experiences. And that’s really everything I’m about.

Ellen (12:07):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing. Isn’t it? I mean, it really it’s too bad because the, when I was in college, I actually did UI and UX work, but it wasn’t called that. I just had a couple of classes and it was this very basic thing. And we would time the interactivity with how many clicks and how, how long the user had to be in a specific page and, um, with my undergrad in computer science. And it’s so funny though, that that title really, it just took a while for people to get that aspect as, oh, Hey, wait, this is its own job. So I love that. And I love that every conversation with you, I learned something new because I didn’t know you when the computer science award and

Ellen (12:46):

I love it. Do you like

Ellen (12:47):

Save things? So then I’ll be surprised that.

Erin (12:51):

sometimes I forget.

Ellen (12:53):

So you’ve already touched on this a little bit, but tell us about how motherhood shaped some of your decisions in your career.

Erin (13:02):

I mean, it’s been everything. I think the question would even better be what, how has it not shaped every decision because being a wife and a mom are my most important roles in my life and everything I do is in support of that. So for a time being home was what my family needed and that was right for us. And now building this career as what my family needs and what I need, because it makes me really happy to do this. And it makes me a better person having such interesting things to think about and people to talk to. And, but I do all of this for them in our future. And that’s the only reason why I’m doing this. So, I mean, it’s everything. And I know I’m capable of so much. And I want my son to see that from, from both of us, my husband and I both to see that our hard work, our intense learning, our dedication to something really pays off in tangible ways, in ways that he can identify now and into adulthood. I just really want him to see that and know that he can do it for himself as well. And finally, I just really want the flexibility that the tech industry and remote work offers, because being with my family is more important to me than, than being away. So I just love the possibilities in this industry.

Ellen (14:23):

Yeah. I love it. I never I’m from Detroit and I never liked driving now. It’s like a sin. I don’t know, but I never liked the commute to work. I really never liked it. And I’m happy to put in extra hours. It just skip the driving to me. I’m like, well, what’s remote work. You get like an extra hour of work, you know, but I appreciate it.

Erin (14:48):

Yeah. I’m from the San Francisco bay area and that’s where I learned to drive. I agree.

Ellen (14:54):

So you can’t be a good driver. Nobody’s got any tricks. Everyone should go to Detroit to learn how to drive and then they can go other places.

Erin (15:01):

Yes. But for sure, I don’t want to even sit where we live now. It’s like you sit in traffic for 15 minutes and it’s like, oh, I was in traffic for so long that I don’t want to do.

Ellen (15:13):

Yes. That is true here in Raleigh. And I live in Chicago, it’s just terrible traffic, so, okay. So you told us a little bit about what made you decide to take that leap to UX design. And I think you even covered like what you found rewarding and beneficial, but if you have anything you want to say on that, and then I would love you to answer the question if you ever doubted yourself too.

Erin (15:34):

Okay. So I love UX design because there’s so much to learn. So I’ve been working on this for over a year, um, beyond a year. I mean, and I have so much to learn and I just love that. I feel like you can take a deep dive into so many rabbit holes with this career and find exactly what you like. And, and I think that’s so great. I love that every day, I’m thinking through complex problems and coming up with multiple solutions. Um, I love that there’s a heavy creative element. I really need that in my life. You know, to be producing creative things fuels me.

Erin (16:18):

And, but the technical expertise is needed because in a way, sometimes that is lacking a little bit that I had in photography because editing photos can be monotonous and things like that, but this is new. Like there’s, there’s different problems that come up and different technical skills that are needed to solve those problems. And I really enjoy that. And there’s, there’s a wide range of topics that I have gotten to learn about and continue to learn about because I like to know lots of things. I like to learn lots of things I like to know about lots of things. And I like, I just find learning. Interesting. So not only am I learning about the UX skills themselves, but also about software development and how that process works, how teams work like with agile methodology and the clients I’m serving in all of their businesses.

Erin (17:09):

I think they’re all doing different and interesting things and that’s an opportunity to learn every day. So I just love that so much. And then to answer your question, do you ever doubt yourself? I almost, I’m trying hard not to laugh because it’s at least monthly, if not weekly, right? I mean, this is hard. This is really hard and doing new things is hard and scary. And I have gotten more comfortable with the fact that there’s going to be doubt because it’s new, um, because I’m not new anymore, but I’m still coming across new ideas all the time I’m coming across new clients. I mean, everything is, it’s hard. So yes, the doubt creeps in, but I addressed that through being a part of a coaching program through your techy. Um, I talk about that weekly and I journal, I share my fears and my insecurities, and then I’m able to move on and that’s, what’s so different for me now is that I’m not trying to avoid the fears and insecurities. I’m just saying here they are. Okay, great. They’re on the paper. Is that something I need to worry about anymore? No. Okay. Let’s move on.

Ellen (18:28):

Yes. I love it. I love it. That, I mean, thank you. That’s all great info. So I mean, it is really impressive. I think one of the important things, one of the reasons I wanted to ask you that question is because you are, so you come across as so confident and then in our coaching, you’ve been able to negotiate. I mean, it’s not like people are like, here’s what I want to pay you. Like you, you negotiate and say, this is what I’m worth. This is. And like you said, some people are willing to pay it and some people are not. And you understand where, um, where your skills lie. And I think that that’s a huge value. And I want people to understand that just because you’re confident and you’re getting paid, that’s what you do.

Ellen (19:06):

And we’ll talk about that. That doesn’t mean that you don’t ever doubt yourself. And a lot of times people talk about this imposter syndrome, which, oh yeah. It’s a little, I don’t know. It’s a little overused term, I guess, I think, but it really is. It’s true. That’s why people use it all the time. Right. We continue to think, I don’t know if I can do this, even though we’re already doing it, but do you think you doubt yourself? There’s just honestly, like, do you think you doubt yourself less or more from getting hired to when you started or every time you level up? Or how does the doubt, how does it feel different or the same from when you started?

Erin (19:43):

So it comes in waves, right? Like sometimes I’m just, I’m in the zone, I’m doing it. I’m getting things done. Clients are happy, I’m happy, everybody’s happy. And then there are times when I think it comes in, when I give myself too much time to think about it and I give my brain free rein to think about the things that could go wrong. Yeah. Um, and you know, this isn’t just, it doesn’t just happen in a vacuum with UX design and freelancing and applying for jobs. This is a lifelong challenge and changing the way my brain works and sees these things has been the greatest challenge of this whole journey, because this isn’t just related to work. This is related to everything. And so becoming more mentally strong has been the hugest challenge of this whole process. And it is something that I’ve seen my co members in, in the membership go through as well of growing in this area where they comes from pushing through those times and pushing through those hard things. And every time something new pops up, it’s another wave of, oh my gosh, what am I going to do?

Ellen (21:03):

Right. I that’s so great that you said every time, something new pops up, it’s a new wave. Speaking of coaching and, and the title getting paid, that’s the title getting Paid with Erin Ziebart. So where does that come from? Tell people.

Erin (21:17):

When it comes from you had a live session, a coaching session that you did with another You are techy person, um, in the group, and you said to her, what if you just start thinking I get paid. That’s what I do. And I was listening to that. And I was like, that is one of the things that has stuck with me the most out of all of this. And so I wrote it on a little sticky note and tape that to my laptop. I get paid. That’s what I do. And I’m looking at it right now because I wasn’t getting paid, but it was just one of those lines that just resonated with me. That was like, you know what? I am a boss, babe, and I’m going to get this done and I am going to get paid. And that is what I’m going to do. And I’m going to claim that right now.

Ellen (22:08):

Right. I love it. And then you made it happen. I did. Okay. I love it because it’s really important that people understand that sometimes you have to own your future. Yes. And that’s something you always have to own your future, or it’s going to own you. And as you, uh, people will say, well, you’ve manifested it. Well, it’s not just like, I just sit here and do affirmations all day. Like you’ve got to work to make it happen, but sometimes you have to let it sit there with a thought that you really, you, you want to, to be true in your life. And so I think that’s fun. So I just think it’s such a fun thing. And I actually forgot that I was coaching someone else. That’s the beauty of group. Right. When I, when I started this journey, I didn’t even think to do group coaching.

Ellen (22:59):

And then it kind of morphed into that and people love it because we can hear other people and say, oh, wait a minute. That’s exactly what I’m thinking. Or, you know, I’ve been through that. And I have to say the group coaching is what has kept me on track the most, because there’s accountability every week to show up and tell these people. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you don’t talk about the work you’re doing, but to know that I might be asked, how did you do this week on your work? And I might have to say, I did absolutely nothing. Right, right. And you have to own it. Yes. I could say I crushed it. And so that weekly responsibility has been so huge for me to transform into someone who does that for myself. And now I do it for myself. So I love it.

Ellen (23:46):

It’s beautiful. What do you find most challenging about your job by far?

Erin (23:52):

The most challenging thing is that I don’t ever know the answer right off the bat. I love that. Oh, okay. Let’s talk about that. Okay. So a client comes to a realization that they need UX or a company or a team, um, because something isn’t working or they have a brand new idea, which I really enjoy working with startups. They have a brand new idea that they want to create the best possible way from the beginning, which is user centered and user focused. Um, so, but not knowing how it’s going to look when I start is so hard and scary still because it’s like, but it’s very much like photography. I can talk to, uh, a client, a mom of a large family till I’m blue in the face. But until we all have them, they’re standing in the field and the sun’s going down, we don’t know what’s going to happen, but it turns out to be a beautiful something at the end.

Ellen (24:57):

And I just love that.

Erin (24:58):

I get so much energy from that because you have to work with others. You have to take feedback. You have to put work out there that isn’t totally perfect and take feedback and then iterate on it and make it better. And so it is the most challenging, but I am getting more comfortable with not knowing and knowing that I can trust myself to do excellent work throughout the process and arrive at a really good end point. I think that’s so insightful because of course, you’ve, you know, you’ve been through the program. So you know this, but I’ll tell the listeners. One of the hardest challenges in our program is getting people to start their self selected, pick it and start it so far. It’s true. Is it hard?

Erin (25:43):

It’s the hardest thing, because you don’t know what you’re doing. You don’t know what you’re doing. You don’t know what the end result is going to be.

Erin (25:50):

Right. And you are afraid. You’re just afraid. And that’s all it is.

Ellen (25:55):

Right? Yeah. And I keep saying, you have to trust me. I walk you through the UX process. You just have to trust me. You go to the process. So for everyone out there, and if I’m a liar, I’m putting it out there, say it. But if you go through the UX process, if you don’t know what it is at the beginning, do you have something at the end?

Erin (26:11):

Yes. Every time, what have you don’t have anything at the end there, then you didn’t do any work. Then you didn’t do It.

Ellen (26:19):

Right. Like, of course you always have something at the end, right?

Erin (26:22):

Yeah. And if it’s not great, then you learned a ton and your next one is going to be horrible. What the last one was. Yeah. I think that’s an important message for people because going through the process, like along the way, all this doubt creeps in and you’re like, but I don’t know what to do, but, and if you just keep going, you get through the process and that’s the education, but that’s really hard to know. Cause you’ve all the along the way, you’re like, well this or that or this or that, when you go do the work, you still have that. I still don’t know what it’s going to look like at the end. Right. And that’s the whole thing, you know, that’s where having the group interaction, coworkers or whatever. I can’t think of the word right now. The, um, yeah. Coworkers, mentees. T-to yeah. The team. Yeah. Working with others, other humans, the other humans that are doing

Erin (27:15):

Yeah. Projects around me or working on the same project. Yeah. It’s like getting that feedback from others helps you move forward. So you can’t really learn this in a vacuum. You could in a way, but you have to get the feedback because when you’re working, you’re going to get the feedback. Right. And you have to be okay with feedback. And that’s, that’s probably the second, most difficult thing is learning to embrace feedback. Um, it’s not, uh, a critique on you as a person. It’s a critique on the work you produced and there’s always room to improve. And that’s what not to, not to pitch the membership, but the that’s why we do it in group. And we give each other feedback because you can learn from someone else’s project by giving them feedback. Exactly. Um, I would say that was one of the things, I mean, you are amazing at giving other people feedback.

Ellen (28:08):

You, I feel like that led to a lot of your success because you were always willing to give, but then you were learning throughout the process. Um, and you were always give really great feedback to other people. Do you think that helped you see in other projects?

Erin (28:21):

Yeah. Oh, it definitely helps me and it, um, I try to really come, not come from a place of, I know better because I don’t know better, but to say I saw it from this perspective and maybe that will help you. Um, or if I had already done something or already received feedback in the same light, I’d like to share that with someone else to save you time and the other mentors time. But also because I learned it, let me share what I learned with you. And, um, if that helps them get to their goal quicker, that makes me really happy. Yeah. I think that’s, I love that. I think that’s really helpful. And if we’re being honest, as UX designers are designed are almost never fully implemented as we envisioned them the very first time. It just doesn’t it doesn’t.

Ellen (29:11):

And so if you get too married to it and you’re not like, oh, let me think about that. Let me, then you’ll just be sad all the time. Right. I love it. Okay. Erin, last question. Okay. I’m so excited asked you this. What advice would you give to a mom considering a career in tech and specifically UX design consider that she might be nervous or doubting herself?

Erin (29:31):

No, I love this question. And first of all, I wish I could give her a hug because I understand how she feels. But second of all, I would say, if you are thinking about a career in tech, any tech or UX or development or whatever, you are so much farther along, down the path, then you realize that you might as well just take that leap because most people think of it and go, oh, I would never want to do that.

Erin (30:02):

You’re considering maybe I’d want to do that. You do want to do it. So go for it. Just do it. It is going to be hard because you will not know the answer right away, no matter what you’re doing. UX software development, all of it, you are not going to know the answer right away. You’re not going to know if you chose the right path right away, but you get far enough down the path. You either love what you’re doing. Or you found an alternate path in tech that you do love and you go that way, but you have to start. And so starting is the key. And the other quote that I have hanging up that I always look at that I go to all the time is never give up on a dream because of the time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass. Anyway, by Earl Nightingale, you have to go for it. This is a dream, but it will take time and it’s worth it. And you will grow. Your family will grow. It’s going to be awesome. And the last thing would be, get a mentor or three. And don’t listen to everyone because people do not understand what you’re doing and they can not see your goal the way you see it. So choose a few people like Ellen says who you’re listening to and tune out everybody else. And that’s all I have.

Ellen (31:20):

That’s fantastic Erin Ziebart. Thank you so much for being here on the You are techY podcast.

Erin (31:26):

Thanks, Ellen. This was awesome.

Voiceover (31:33):

Hey, if you enjoyed listening to this podcast, you have to sign up for the You are techY email list. Imagine being in the tech job of your dreams, join me to get the strategies, training, and never ending support to get hired. Sign up at youaretechy.com. That’s Y-O-U-A-R-E-T-E-C-H-Y.com. I’ll see you next time.