You are techY podcast

Ellen Twomey:  Miriam Tocino is a developer author, and mom, she helps your kids get excited about technology through the power of books.

She began her career in architecture, making the switch to technology about seven years ago. After working as a software developer for a number of years, Miriam began teaching software development for Codassieur where she educated the next generation of software developers. After becoming a mom, Miriam was inspired to introduce technology to children and used books as her vehicle.

As the author of the Zerus & Ona book series, Miriam was on a mission to make computers more approachable, friendly, and easy to understand, and to get you and your family excited about technology. Zerus Gets a Virus is the first book in the series. It’s a story about computer security and viruses, and it includes a parent guide and a glossary with versions available in English, Dutch, German, and Spanish. Miriam resides in Amsterdam with her husband and son when she’s not quarantined in Spain. Miriam, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.

Miriam Tocino: Thank you for having me, Ellen. This is exciting.

Ellen Twomey:  I’m so excited to talk to you. You love technology and education. That’s my wheelhouse. I think it is just so cool what you’re doing, helping families start that computer knowledge early and in an approachable way. Can you tell us, why did you decide to start this book series and what are you trying to do to inspire the next generation?

 Miriam Tocino: So, three years ago, so I got pregnant and I was still teaching and then, I had my son and then, when I got this baby, I naturally start to thinking about the way in which I’d like to introduce him to the world of computers. First started looking at it at home with him, which was reading books right. And I realized that well, children start building their reality from them. And when they read a book, their whole life becomes that book. And also, well, from my days as a teacher, I noticed how important the stories can be when, when you are learning something new. And that’s why very often during my classes, we talked about code as much as we go with it.

So I’d normally say like hey look, close your laptops. Let’s just get talking. Right. And students normally felt more confident in their technical skills.

And so I thought about how I could bring some of the elements I used in my teaching, into people’s homes and help parents open up the conversation around tech and that’s how I started.

So I also had to do it in a way that was fun for the kids, but also, and because parents are often so busy, it needed to be very hands on too. Right. That’s why I’m writing these books about computers, with stories that are easy to tell at home that make concepts very tangible and accessible, but that are also engaging to get kids asking tons of questions, right? Because that’s, that’s what we want at the end, you know, to talk with them about it. So I hope that Zerus & Ona help parents open up that conversation with them while they teach their children some computer basics. And as you said, without the need for a screen and through the power of books. 

Ellen Twomey: Right. That’s super interesting. I love that you just made it a way that just fits into parents’ lives, right? Like we’re already reading books to our kids. We’re already introducing them, but you didn’t start off in technology despite your dad’s encouragement. Why didn’t you start off in technology?

Why did you start off with a different career? 

Miriam Tocino: Well, so. Such a great question, right? Because it goes all the way back to the origins of my story and the work that I’m doing now. So, totally true. So I wasn’t always this passionate about computers. And even though my dad always wanted me to go into computer science, right.

 I just didn’t see the point. I missed it somehow. And I only look at computers as an aid. I know this, this friend, right full of possibilities and challenges. And I felt really that studying computing was so gray and so boring that I didn’t want to do it. And I wanted to do something fun and something colorful and especially something that helped other people around me.

That’s what I wanted to do. And instead, I went to college and studied architecture And then about being an architect at first, I really liked it. So I worked for seven years more or less. Yeah. So years in several countries around Europe and it was exciting and we were winning competitions and I got to work in very challenging projects.

And so it was good. But at some point, you know, what happens Ellen was that I wasn’t feeling happy because I was working too much. Like in architecture, you do long hours, you do overnight and full weekends. And I just didn’t see myself doing that during my whole life. So it was around that same time, now husband and that’s when things started to change, to shift for me in terms of my idea of technology and programming. So he’s a gaming programmer and he loves his work. Right. And then from the very first date we were having all those techie conversations that you’d say around the things he was doing.

Right. It hit me. So 2013, after some time living together and seeing what working as a programmer looks like, I finally decided to quit my job as an architect and I stayed home for six months to cope through online courses. 

Ellen Twomey: Wow. Okay. And what was your first coding language that you used? 

Miriam Tocino: So I started with PHP because here’s the thing in what I did. I was in Germany by that time placed in Frankfurt. I went to Google and I searched, what is the programming language that has been asked the most in the area that I lived in? And it was great, you know, like PHP was like, boom. Right. And then, I mean, it was 2013, Ellen, like now everyone is doing this thing. Or a lot of people are considering a career in tech, but in 2013, no one was doing it. I was crazy.

And then, I joined Treehouse. I joined Code School and I joined Code Academy.  Everything they had about PHP. And I found my way into it. 

Ellen Twomey: That is impressive. Yeah PHP is not for the faint of heart. That’s definitely, you know, challenging. You started on the challenging and so that’s fun.

So you actually did this before you became a mother. 

Miriam Tocino: Yes. 

Ellen Twomey: Right. So how would you say that becoming a mom shaped your career decisions? 

Miriam Tocino: I love this question Ellen. Thank you for asking me, because this is such an important conversation. And I don’t think that we have that enough. So when I got pregnant, as I said, that I was still teaching right. So, and then my baby was born and after three months of maternity leave, I went back to work and I couldn’t do it. So I was like, all my respect for  all those moms that go back to work after three months. And I think it’s about having options, right? Like it’s about giving moms the option to whether they want to go back to work or not.

Right. So in my case, it really was a hard thing to do because I was teaching eight hours programming lessons to 25 people. Right. And then also there were those development bootcamps in which they are there for 12 weeks. And then they have a very emotional baggage as well, because most of them, they quit their careers, or this is like a death or life situation. Right. And then sometimes I had to deal with a lot of emotional stuff and conversations and I just said, look, I have this baby. He’s not sleeping. I was at 3:00 AM walking around and, um, I’m sorry I cannot teach you how to code today. So having a baby turned out to be a huge challenge for us.

And we were also expats living in Amsterdam and we have few family and we have very few friends around and we were constantly sleep deprived. This meant that suddenly, and without too much planning, I was at home everyday taking care of a baby and having a lot of time to be with my thoughts, probably yeah for the first time in my life.

It was then that I started doing a lot of journaling. And so whenever he fell asleep, I started journaling and I discovered that as much as I love programming and coding, a, part of me was missing the creative side of architecture. Right. And I miss the sketching and I miss the drawing and it was around that same time that I had the idea for Zerus & Ona, I decided to go for it. So I started drawing a writing during his nap times and eventually also, and this was the best hack ever because I would wake up early in the morning, 6:30, I left baby and dad at home. And then I went and work in cafe next to my husband’s office before his work.

And then when he came at 10:00, I was ready for the baby. That’s what I did for months and months and months. Yeah, it was amazing. Because it was like that moment of connection that opportunity to actually be with myself and also do something apart from taking care of my baby, which for me was important.

 Motherhood gave me an opportunity to pause Ellen and to reflect back on what I’ve been doing in my career and what I wanted to spend my time on moving forward. And I think that sometimes we need to slow down to speed up again, as hard as that can be.

Right. And I think that’s exactly what happened here. Also, I saw it as a chance for me to be a mother and do a career that made a great impact because I believe, that is so important to come up with fresh new ways to introduce the world of computers to our kids, because we need to reach as many of them as we can.

And especially moms, I think they’re very often role models for their children and it’s important to look tech savvy and be able to inspire them too. And eventually reaching more kids and that’s, that’s close to my heart because I think reaching more kids will end up building a more diverse tech industry in the upcoming years. I think as diversity as a force for humanity and the more diverse these themes become, the more caring and the more humane  the world we’ll be creating. 

Ellen Twomey: There’s so much good stuff in that.  I want to go back to, so I love journaling. I encourage my students all the time, especially like. A lot of times I’m working with women who are entering the interview phase and when they practice interviewing they’ll sound so scattered, if they don’t write it down and then kind of filter – it’s like writing is to, to really like clarify your own thinking.

And I know I started my blog. I’m a big fan of Tim Ferriss. Have you ever heard of Tim Ferris? 

Miriam Tocino: Yeah, I’m a big fan as well. 

Ellen Twomey: Of course you’re here because we love all the same things. And he would talk about Kevin Kelly and Kevin Kelly has this like really short paper, like a Thousand True Fans, but basically the, what Kevin Kelly will say is sometimes we’re just writing for our own clarity of thought. Sometimes we’re writing for ourselves. And so for me, writing was, I was like a pretty good student, really good in math. Writing I was always like the B+, and I never like wrote the way the teachers wanted me to write and I really only ever liked diagramming sentences.

And so I think that for me – so I just started blogging and I realized what I really like about kind of the online world is like, I get to just write how I talk and I’m a very straight talker and I’m a very straight writer. So nobody’s going to read my writing and be like, wow Ellen, you’re an excellent writer. But they might understand something like technology in a different way because of how I write, but I think that for me – and I journal every day, as you know. For me, journaling has, if nothing more, helped me clarify my own thinking. And I think it’s been such a gift to myself and I really, I love that you found your way through journaling, you found kind of your own, your own self, your own thoughts, you were able to leverage what you were doing.

But I love, so you’re talking about nap time, but I am, I’m like obsessed with what you did that you’ve got up at 6:30 and then you work till 10. And the thing is so many of the moms that I work wit h, they don’t know how to fit the time in, and I just love – I’m not saying that what you did is going to be right for everyone, but you picked what was right for you.

And it’s so brilliant it’s like, you know, you like for me, my husband traveled a bunch. And so I always really liked working at night, even though I’m not a night person, I just, my kids were asleep. I’m not really a TV person and I would work at night and that works for me. And so I think finding that niche. So like what made you decide to go that 6:30 to 10:00 AM plan?

Why did you decide to do that? Were you able to be really productive in that time?

 Miriam Tocino: First, I think, being a mom, it can bring you so much clarity.  It can also release all the difficulties that you have with perfectionism in the past.

And the first time Ellen that I went out  through that door and I left with my baby and my husband at home, I felt so guilty and I felt like a, such a bad mom, because that’s not what a mom does. 

Ellen Twomey: Yes. I love that. You’re saying this. That’s beautiful. 

Miriam Tocino: It took a while. I’m not gonna lie. It took a while to actually realize that I was going to be a better mom if I was that time away. It wasn’t easy to communicate that to my husband, right because I think I was like, you know, you tend to please everyone, or at least I am, I’m a people pleaser.

Right. And also you are in this motherhood transformation, you know, and then stepping up and asking things for yourself. It’s tricky. But I think what gave me – answering your question, what gave me that push was that I wasn’t feeling happy.  I was completely drained. And during the first months of motherhood, I said I was sleep deprived. You have two options. You have the option of being sleep deprived and sad or sleep deprived and happy. 

Ellen Twomey: I love it. 

Miriam Tocino: Which is like, do you want to be tired and happy, or do you want to be tired sad and grumpy? Right. And that was such a great insight, right. And to be happy yes, I needed those hours in the morning. Because some days it was just to be there with my coffee, to be honest, and to have that, you know. So, and then I miss it now. I miss that time. He’s three years old right now. I miss working early in the morning because then when you have that restriction, like that constraint, you know, you know that you have those couple of hours in the morning, and then he will fall asleep later in the afternoon. And then knowing that you’re going to be working with those two hours, it makes you produce in a way that it’s very much like, what’s the priority? You know, what is the thing going to move the work forward? So, you know, you don’t procrastinate as much. Yeah. Procrastination is gone. 

Ellen Twomey: You don’t have time for the negotiating in your mind. Do I do this? What about that? No, you just sit down and get to work. 

Miriam Tocino: Yeah. So, and then maybe for the people listening, they can relate to this as well.  You need something and that’s what made the shift for me, I think. Because in the beginning,  when you start things and also switching careers, as many people in your audience might be doing right now is that you have that phase in which there’s a lot of self doubt. And then you don’t really know what you’re doing. You don’t really know if you’re going to go for it or not, and you need a trick to get you out of there. And for me, it was a hundred day project which is basically you remove the stuff about whether I want to do it, or I don’t want to do it. You know, you just commit yourself to do one thing for a hundred days straight no matter what. 

Ellen Twomey: I love it. I love everything about it. Yeah, and I love that. You said you felt so guilty. I love that you shared that because I want to share – in my story, I stayed home. Instead of taking action, I would just complain and I would just be mad at my husband a lot. But I didn’t take the time soon enough. I wouldn’t take that time for myself and I look back now. Now, I do take the time. Now I understand. And I did when my fourth was, was young, but I know it was because of that guilt like that – I was I was a bad mom. I didn’t love my kids cause I was going to go work for three hours? Like that’s crazy. And I think what you said is so great. If you can look outside of yourself, which sometimes we can’t because we’re so sleep deprived, but if we can journal about it and find like, no, actually, actually I’m going to get better mom. Sometimes we think like it’s supposed to feel good. You’re never going to feel good leaving your baby the first time. That’s never going to feel good. I mean, there are a couple of people I’ve met who were like, yeah, it wasn’t a big deal for me, but most moms are like, that was really hard for me.

And like you said, it wasn’t like your husband was like, yeah, this is great. He had to be convinced, right? That’s okay. We don’t have to please everybody. So love all of that about your story. I love that you say commit. I think that is that, you know, that’s why I always teach people like, have a three month goal, try to do it in three months. Okay. So what if you did it in four or five? That doesn’t matter, but if you’re like, well, I’m just going to take as long as it takes, you’re not going to make the progress and I’m all about progress. Okay. 

Miriam Tocino: And I will say too, I want to add something else to that,  so what I did with the journaling, so I took the book The Artist’s Way from Julia Cameron. Okay. Yeah,  she gives you two tools. It gives you two tools. And then one of those tools is morning pages, which is basically you wake up, you write three more, three pages, handwritten, all the stuff that you can think of, you know, like no editing, no stopping, nothing.

And then she also tells you once a week, you need to take an artist date. Because the artist within, it’s like a child. And that resonated with me a lot because having that child at that moment in my life as well, you know, like know, knowing that that artist inside of me needed also to be taken care of, you know was, it was really nice. But to the morning pages and to the complaining side of it.

I – when I started journaling, I decided that I was going to stop complaining to people around me. And I was just complaining in the morning pages. Like they normally tell you in the book, like she tells you, your morning pages are going to be super boring. And by the way, I didn’t do that in the morning because you know, in the morning, but eventually some parts and maybe it was not three pages, you know, it was all very messy.

And also giving yourself the, when you’re a mom giving yourself the permission to say, I’m just going to make it happen however it is. And let it be just messy. Right? Because if we think like in our careers, you know, very career driven and then suddenly you have a baby that doesn’t sleep, you know, suddenly your life is chaos. And then it’s like, Oh, if it scales, I’m not going to do it. No, let it be messy. It’s okay. Right. So then I started journaling and then they told you, your morning pages are going to be very boring.

Very boring. And my first hundred pages were like, why is this baby not sleeping? Why me? You know, like these really sucks, you know, like, and then eventually   I wanted to write and I wanted to do something for myself and bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. One day Zerus & Ona were on the page, and then from that day on, Zerus & Ona was all in my morning pages.

Ellen Twomey: Wow. 

Miriam Tocino: I saw that happening. I saw that happening Ellen after months. And that’s exactly what they tell you in the book that the whole journaling just takes away all the rubbish. And then it’s like cleaning layers, cleaning layers, cleaning layers until  it’s all clear. 

Ellen Twomey: Wow. 

Miriam Tocino: But it’s real. That happened to me. It’s beautiful. 

Ellen Twomey: I love that because really what you’re saying is like, okay, we’re going to just have every thought and feeling that we have, and we’re going to just give it to the journal and instead, and then just clear it out. And then we’re going to find something underneath and whatever we find is beautiful. And I love it because,  Julia Cameron, The Artist’s Way, a lot of times people don’t want it. They’re like, well, I’m not an artist. Right, I work in tech. Although I would say tech is an art. I also like, Elizabeth Gilbert, what’s the, what is the book? 

Miriam Tocino: The Big Magic

Ellen Twomey: Yes, right. Big Magic. So she just talks about – it’s more about this concept where you’re like a hundred days to commit. Like she, so for you guys, you don’t know, she’s Eat Pray Love, which like now she’s huge, you know, she’s like JK Rowling.

They made, they made out of movies. She’s, you know, I don’t know, millionaire, billionaire. I really don’t know, but she’s super rich and famous. And everybody’s like, Oh, she’s so successful. But if you read her stuff, you will see, like, she was the definition of a tortured artist. She was a writer and she would just write and write and write.

And she even said like, one of her friends was much better than her as a writer, but he quit and she didn’t quit. And so I think that, so often we think we’re supposed to be good at the beginning. And I know this perfectionism and you talked about like, we think we’re going to just be really good at it and when we’re not. You’re not going to be good. And so what you’re saying like this a hundred days, no matter what, some days suck, some days you’re like, I did crap, but if you showed up, you’re going to be further along than if you didn’t, you know? 

Miriam Tocino: Yes. Yes. So true.

 Ellen Twomey: So Zerus & Ona was really born from your morning pages.

Miriam Tocino: I mean, that and my conversations with my husband. So it was a topic that, yeah, that really, really touched us. So we both work in the tech industry and, and yeah, we were not sleeping, the baby wanted to play until late at night. So one day it was really late at night. It was 12 o’clock. And then we, we grabbed a book about computer science and then suddenly we started thinking  about, you know, the world of computers. And we started saying, Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we’re reading stories happening inside a computer and how computers, the math and graphics and how the internet works.

And then right away, we were like, but they should be told by a zero and a one. And they could live in the binary world and they could be called Zerus & Ona and.Ellen tap tap tap tap tap, like we were just there and that became. And then next day I was like, okay, this is what I was writing about in my morning pages.

Ellen Twomey: Did you know that when you started journaling, did you know that you would want to be an author? 

Miriam Tocino: Nothing. Nothing. 

Ellen Twomey: Wow. 

Miriam Tocino: Nothing. I felt like you know in some months I go back to teach. 

It was a lot of self-trust, you know, but also the daily connection with the characters and with the craft. So whatever it is that you are doing, I think. In my case, it was writing and illustrating, you need to create some momentum. And I agree with you that it doesn’t need to be like building a prototype and an M VP for an app is as artistic as you know, writing a book about computers, and I think that’s important for people to realize. Technology is very creative and it can also become an important part of your toolkit to create the world that you want to live in.

Right. So it is really important that we communicate that to our children.   Understanding computers and learning, you know, how they work can really give them superpowers.

I normally tell this story and that is. You could say Zerus & Ona bring together what I’ve been learning during the last 20 years of my life. So what I’ve been learning about architecture, what I’ve been learning about programming and what I been learning about teaching. But Ellen, if you get to ask me, what is the thing that gave me the biggest confidence to move forward with it?

It was being tech savvy and my ability to code. Knowing that you can deal with all that technical stuff, like setting up the shop, you know, building the website, making it the way you want, domain hosting, email hosting and whatever it’s dot com. Like it gives you such a boost and it gave me – knowing that I have that done right and that, okay, this is something that I know how to deal with. I know how to deal with this stuff. You know, now it’s time to focus on, on the thing that I’m creating, which is the stories So then I think it’s so important for our children to understand this.

You know, to move them from mere consumers of technology, into creators of technology. 

Ellen Twomey: Yeah. Okay. I love that. Okay. I wanted to talk about that. So this concept is you’re talking about kids and  some of our listeners might know I was a high school teacher. I’ve worked with middle school level. Like I’ve done, I’ve done a lot of teaching of children and teaching of adults.

I, that’s definitely a wheelhouse of mine. And so often, because our children are users of technology. People think, Oh, they know how they know better than me. They know they know it better than me cause they cause they can use a technology. What would you say to parents who think that their kids know more than them about technology because they use the technology?

  Miriam Tocino: I focus on opening up the conversation. I think after speaking with parents and teachers, that many parents are just like, Oh, they know better. So they don’t even start the conversation about technology. And here’s the thing. So schools around the globe are more and more being asked to include technology literacy in their curriculum.

And it is becoming part of their education system. Right. And then that’s great, but you also have experienced teaching, coding and computing, and you know, how hard that is. And really computers are becoming a greater part of our culture is not anymore something that you’re learning is cool.

You know, it’s like, are we going to ask our children to learn coding and computing in school? And we as parents are not stepping in? You know, I was concerned with that and now I’m like, look, we parents, it is our responsibility as much as it is school’s that we bring up conversations around technology at home.

So it’s about teaching the children that sometimes it’s also about teaching the parents, you know, and this whole thing that is going on around us, that we don’t even see it, you know, that whole privacy and data, you know, issues or online security and online safety. I can see a lot of type of parents saying like, I don’t know how that works.

I saw a gap there and I took it as an opportunity as we need to step in, and how? We’re going to make it super simple. You said it in the beginning, there is a parent guide. There’s a glossary. It can be daunting and overwhelming. Of course it is, you know, it’s huge whether you’re starting to learn how to code or whether you’re a parent with a three year old, but how did you start? Smaller steps.

So the first book it’s about computer viruses and security. It also touches the emails. It touches like mary different side angles that you can actually – but the other day I was doing some activities with some kids and then a girl, four year old, came to me and in the middle of the story Zerus & Ona they go to the  antivirus. And then in the waiting room, there are like three posters featuring Trojans, bots, and worm s. And then she was telling me, do you know that there are Trojans and bots and worms? 

Ellen Twomey: I love it. That’s so cute. A four year old? Oh, that’s perfect. 

Miriam Tocino:  And it’s a girl. Right. Which is also on top of, you know, there is a gender gap thing. It’s there, you know, and talking with parents and with teachers, it starts super early. Like I teach a father, the other day, he was telling me she’s six and she already sees computers as a boy thing, 

That’s horrible.

So I thought, okay, which are the things that I loved when I was little? I loved reading books. I loved coloring. I loved telling the stories, you know, that’s the thing that these girls need. And then the next book it’s going to be published this autumn and it’s for the little ones. And it’s written in the form of a poem it’s written in the form of – it’s a song.

They can dance to it, they can learn it. And then for the music I’m working with a live coding musician, and then there is some coding involved. So then when kids are totally into Zerus & Ona, then they are like, Oh, there’s a song. Let’s dance it. Oh, they use coding to do the song, right. 

Ellen Twomey: Oh, that is awesome.

That is so – I love it. That is so great. Okay. Where can everyone find you? We’re going to link to everything in the show notes, but why don’t you just tell us what they can do, where they can find you. 

Miriam Tocino: So, if you want to see a little bit more about what my career in tech looks like, you can sign up at  ZerusAndOna.com/YouAreTechY, and you’ll be getting a gift that I prepared for the people listening, which is a PDF featuring some of the stories in the ABC of computer series.

So the ABC of computers with Zerus & Ona, that’s a biweekly newsletter that I like to send with short stories and practical activities that will help you become familiar with the world of Zerus & Ona and build your own arsenal of stories to tell at home and share with your kids And if you want to find out more about the books, because you think that’d be wonderful to have for your children, please go to  ZerusAndOna.com/books, and I’d love to connect. 

Ellen Twomey: Thank you so much Miriam for being with us here today.

This was such an interesting conversation. I just appreciate you sharing your story so much with our audience. I think it’s really gonna help a lot of people understand how technology can be a great force in our world and how we can all access it. So thank you so much for being with us here t o day.

Miriam Tocino: Thank you so much, Ellen, for this opportunity and having me on the show today.