You are techY podcast

Ellen Twomey: [00:00:00]
You are listening to the You Are TechY Podcast, episode number 171.

Narrator:
Welcome to the You Are TechY podcast, where it’s all about growing in your tech so you can find the tech job of your dreams. And now your host technology learning coach Ellen Tomi. 

Ellen Twomey:
Kim Seals is a senior partner at West Monroe, a digital services firm that was born in technology built for businesses. West Monroe believes that digital is a mindset. Not a project, a team or a destination, and it’s something companies become, not something they do.

Kim is also one of the general partners at the jump fund whose mission is to invest women’s capital in female-led companies with growth potential in order to generate strong financial return and elevate the role of women in business.

She’s had a storied consulting career specializing in human resources, including a 15 year tour of duty at Mercer, culminating in the senior partnership. Kim has a BS from Louisiana State University in psychology. She makes Atlanta her home. She’s a leader, investor, and advisor. And I know you are going to enjoy hearing from Kim Seals. Kim, welcome to the podcast.

Kim Seals:
Hey Ellen. Great to be here. 

Ellen Twomey:
I’m excited to dive in. So, um, you said before we’re off that, you know, you just always enjoy our conversations and so I’m I’m same for me. And I know we and I were talking last time and I said, Hey, you should come on my podcast. And you’re like, I wanna talk about money. I’m like, I want you talk about, this is great. So we’re gonna talk, we’re gonna talk about money, but just give us a little bit, um, you have a really interesting career. to me, it’s very interesting how kind of the way that you navigated consulting. I started in consulting, so I’m really interested. For you to just. Talk about how you got into consulting and how you, stayed there for, for pretty much most of your career. Um, you know, interweaving some investing in things. So tell us about that. 

Kim Seals:
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting because each thing has led into the next, and I get asked a lot, how did you go from being an HR strategy and talent management consultant into being an investor, right? But I actually started way back in the day after I graduated from L S U, and I’d be remiss if I didn’t say Go Tigers. and I got my, uh, degree in psychology, as you said, and I really didn’t know what I wanted to do, which is sort of, you know, I just wanna do cool and interesting things and have fun and be well compensated for the hard work and, you know, just really, have an interesting career.

That’s my goal. I don’t have like a. a career ladder plan. I have a career wa Rockwall plan, right? Like what’s the next thing? What’s, where do I wanna go? and you know, so I was in corporate HR roles, which is sort of what I got into out of college. Uh, that’s a whole nother story in terms of just, I was working as temporary assignment, job as a receptionist at a college while I trying to figure out what I wanna be, and the HR lady quit.

And I was like, I could do that job. And I went in and asked the CEO if they would give me a shot at it. and he was like, sure. You know, have a beep. 

Ellen Twomey:
I love it. So receptionist to senior partner that that’s, that could be another title. That’s, that’s a fantastic story. I love it.

Kim Seals:
Yeah. But it, but it really is sort of the theme of, I just went in and said, I think I could do that job. Will you give me a chance? And I think you’ll see that as a theme throughout. The advice I give a lot of women is, Ask for what you want, because if you’re not asking for it, how do people know that’s what you want?

Right. So I mean, this would’ve been 1989. I’m dating myself right now, right? 1989. And it’s super young. They, and I got paid, $8 an hour and I thought I was killing it. I was like, this is my first job. I’m ready. Um, and, and so I had several HR roles over the, the next sort of, eight, nine years.

And, one of the ladies I met along the way, her husband was a partner at PWC and I was just talking to her. I was like, I’m super bored with what I’m doing. I really want to do more. I want to, have a greater set of experiences, if you will. And she’s like, would love to introduce you.

My husband, he’s always looking to hire good consultants. He works at pwd, would you like to meet him? And so she introduced me. He hired me in just on the basis of, hey, she’s got an HR background. We do HR consulting. Purely we can turn her into a consultant. and that’s really how I got into consulting.

Again, made a connection, talked about what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go next, and then, uh, that person and boosted me to her husband. and then while I was at pwc, met a, a great group of folks who did teach me how to be an excellent consultant and how to really, meet, the clients where they were and what they needed.

One of them left and went to Mercer and he would call me like at least once a week and be like, you really need to be here at Mercer. This is cool. You’d love it. And Wow. Recruited me over to Mercer. Right. And then to your point of what you said earlier, I was there 15 years and I had, a number of, fantastic opportunities there to do some different things.

And one of ’em was to get involved in some of the work we were doing for the World Economic Forum. And, Mercer had a good partnership with the left. And one of the pieces of research, that, uh, my team and, and uh, some of the folks in at Mercer were involved in was this research around when women thrive.

So we were helping the World Economic Forum figure out what the economic imperative was of keeping women in the workforce on par with men. And we were looking at it country by country and in some cases it could change the, uh, G D P of that country by 50% or more if women were staying in the workforce.

So then it was like, well, why aren’t women staying in the workforce? What’s happening? Where are they going? What are they doing? And you know, of course, obviously many women were leaving the workforce to start families, be with their kids. But there was also a, set of women that were leaving corporate America to go start their own businesses, right?

And so, I was talking to my sister who, had been one of the people working on this research and we were talking about these women-led companies and she said, you know, I made, um, a small angel investment in a startup here in Timber and it’s really cool and I was really excited about it. And, we should think about how we can do more of that.

And I was like, well, I don’t, how would we find deal flow? How do we find these women? Right? And, we started, um, doing some homework and then Pam sent me a link to the Golden Seeds which is one of the largest, most active angel investing networks. In the country and it’s all focused on women led startups.

So got introduced to Golden Feed, joined Golden Feed. back in, it was probably 2012, end of 2012, and wrote one of my first checks like a couple of weeks later. and I was officially an angel investor at that point right now. the good news is Golden Seeds will train you. they have a, a, an excellent curriculum on angel investing 1 0 1.

How do you think about deals? How do you know where to put your money? all of that kind of stuff. And in that training is where I met Christina Montague, who was like, Hey, we’re both here up in New York, but we both live in the south. We’re thinking about starting a fund down in the south, for women to invest in other women.

Do you wanna be a part of it? And I was like, sure, I’d love to do that. and it was really just a great opportunity again to, to help recruit other women to put their money in these funds and, uh, let’s write checks to support women and women trying to start their businesses. [00:07:00] So by this point we get to say 2016, and I’m, I’ve been at Mercer 15 years.

I was like, you know, I really feel like I’ve kind of done all I can do here. I wanna stay more in the startup space. I wanna do some of that stuff. so I ended up leaving Mercer to focus full-time on the jump fund and the startup community and the work I was doing at Atlanta Tech Village as a mentor and advisor.

because interestingly, and this is where it all sort of comes together. The, one of the biggest challenges most startups have in addition to raising capital, is hiring people. Right? Some of the most important things you can do, as you’re building your company is hire the right talent that’s gonna help you take this company forward.

So I was really finding a nice opportunity to coach and mentor, and. You know, help these founders, not only the women led founders helping them get funding, but helping all founders, on this topic of talent and how to grow their business, through the people that they hire. So, I mean, it just really all came together sort of seamlessly.

and it’s, it’s been an interesting ride and I’ve, I we’re 10 years in on the [00:08:00] jump fund, so we started the jump fund in 2013, so it’s our 10 year anniversary. We’ve now fully deployed the capital out of two funds invested in 32 startups here in the southeast, that are all led by women and all across all industries.

and it’s just been a really cool and interesting ride. So fast forward, there’s one more part to this story. Fast forward I start, I got a call from a couple of guys, um, who I used to work with at Mercer who were partners at West Monroe and they were like, Hey, we’re doing some really cool stuff. 

Here we just got some infusion of capital because 50% of our firm just got bought by Michael Dell’s private equity firm. And we’re looking to grow and expand, our HR consulting practice through acquisitions, through organic growth, and we’d love to have you come join us. And it was just great timing with the jump fund sort of winding down that second fund, we’re not gonna do a third fund.

so this West Monroe thing was the next cool and interesting moment for me that sort of put it all together because, you know, not only am I helping to grow the HR consulting side, I’m helping think [00:09:00] through and leading our efforts around m and a. Where we look to acquire other HR consulting firms.

And I also sit on the investment committee of West Monroe Capital, where we deploy, capital alongside our private equity clients into some of their deals. So it really, it’s really, I’ll come full circle and I’ve got the best of all worlds there. Fill, fill, um, a general partner with the John Fondas.

We manage out the remaining years of our portfolio and help our companies get to exit, but also now doing the thing at West Monroe. So that’s probably, is that the longest bio introduction in history there? 

Ellen Twomey:
I don’t know. I got so excited. I started taking notes. I know we’re supposed to be having a casual conversation, but I was like, 

I was just talking with, Golden Seeds and I didn’t realize the tie-in that you had, but of course it makes so much sense and, I didn’t realize that was kind of the, the precipice of it. But it, I mean, it does all tie together and, it doesn’t matter how long it is.

I think it’s, I think everyone can now understand and hear. you know why I wanted to have you on and why? It’s so interesting. I know one of the things that you said at one of our lunches was like, you just wanna solve the most [00:10:00] interesting problem. And I was like, well, why not be a CEO, Kim? Why aren’t you a CEO?

Why are you right? And you’re like, well, they don’t always have the most interesting problems. And I’m like, that’s a really good, 

Kim Seals:
I get asked all the time, why don’t you start your own startup? Right. And I was right. Yeah. Like, yeah. You know, I think I’m more the person to help you, uh, propel your ideas forward.

Yeah. Like, that’s, because again, I, I like to help solve cool and interesting problems for companies I think that’s more my lane that I like to stay in. And I think everybody sort of should play to their strengths. And I think that’s, yeah. What mine is.

Ellen Twomey:
I love what you said about hiring because, and, and startups and like how that can really make or break a startup if you hire the right or wrong people, it’s super, foundational.

Right. And I mean, I come at it from the technology aspect, but like, if you have really great, efficient, effective technology, you’re gonna be in a much better position to really scale and that’s always gonna hold you back. Just like people are always gonna hold you back and you, you’re like, you know, it’s either like you’ve got the flywheel and you’re going, or there’s something holding you back 

[00:11:00] And hiring is hard and a lot of times startup founders are, that’s their first time. Hiring at scale or hiring a lot. So like, what, what should a startup founder be looking for? In, in their hiring, um, practices, who, what type of person should they be looking for?

Kim Seals:
Well, in those early days where you’re looking to expand your team and you’re looking to surround yourself with a group of people that are gonna help you take your great idea to actually be a business, you really need to be thinking about what your own strengths and weaknesses are, and you need to be hiring people around you that can help you fill your gaps.

So if you are a technical founder, but you’ve never commercialized something, then you need to be looking for the folks that have that commercial experience. But if you’re a non-technical founder, maybe you’ve got more of the sales, the marketing, the commercialization background, then find people who can fill that technical gap.

Gap. Or if you’re not a a numbers person, if you’re not into the accounting or the financial side of this, Figure that out [00:12:00] too. and I would also say it’s not like everybody has to be an employee. You could have some sort of strategic optimization of, here are the people I’m gonna hire as employees, here’s where I’m gonna use a fractional C F O, here’s where I’m gonna outsource something.

So you really need to think about it more holistically in terms of what my talent strategy is. But it all starts with, Where do I need to fill my own gaps? Because I can’t have any blinders on about what I know or don’t know, and, you know, how do I find those folks that, that fill those gaps for me? and it does take a lot of self-awareness to take the humble leader who understands what they know and don’t know.

And they’re willing to hire people who are smarter than them. I am of the opinion that it’s, gotta be exhausting to always be the smartest person in the room, right? So how do mm-hmm people actually bring other people in the room that are just as smart, if not smarter than you, so that you can all put your heads together to, to tackle whatever problem your startup is solving.

Ellen Twomey:
Should your employees be smarter than you? Does that mean they’re necessarily, you said fractional, CF [00:13:00]O or fractional CXO or founder or co-founder?

Like how do you view that piece to it in talent strategy and, and those different types of people?

Kim Seals:
I think if you’re hiring to fill your gaps, then yes, the people that you hire should be smarter than you in those gaps you’re looking to fill. Right? and you know, again, hire to their strength, that play to your strength so that together you all have a well-rounded leadership team.

And again, I’m talking about early days. Once you get past that, where you’ve got the. Core nucleus of folks that are gonna help you build this company. And then you start to really scale. You’re at 50 employees, you’re at a hundred employees. Then obviously your talent strategies are much different at that point in terms of, of how you’re hiring.

I was talking to a C E O one time and he said, I interview every employee we hire at this company. And I was like, well, how many employees do you have? And he said, we have 120. And I said, at what point are you no longer gonna interview everybody? And he is like, What do you mean? And I was like, at what point do you truck the people below [00:14:00] you to hire the people they need to fill the gaps on their team and to fill their own gaps?

Right. So, I mean, it’s sort of this, and he was like, Are you saying I shouldn’t? I was like, look, I think if we’re, sitting here a year later and you’ve got 300 employees and you’re still interviewing every one of them, I’m not sure that’s a scalable strategy here.

Right. And you know, you’ve gotta think about, you know, just sort of the building blocks of your team and what you should be doing. Right. this, CEO he thought it was sort of a cool idea that, hey, as I’m building my company, I’ve got my stamp on everybody on our team. And I think that is certainly a very viable strategy up to a certain point.

And then you’ve really gotta be the CEO of the company and you’ve gotta hire great people around you and let those great people hire great people around them and, you know, continue that cycle forward. So, It’s an interesting evolution from being the person who has a great idea to being the CEO of the company that you’ve built around that great idea.

Ellen Twomey:
So, um, we met at, at, at atv, the one mentors, and we’re both mentors there. So we work with like a lot of startups. Like, I [00:15:00] have, here’s a v, here’s some money, and I have, I’m VC backed and I’m gonna like run for seven years and, you know, like, I’m building, building, building.

But I also, in my, well in, in my work at Fugitive, but also like in my sphere and my friends, like a lot of us are building service companies. so that can come outta like freelance work. 

Can you speak to that because you’ve been in services, you know, for your career. when you think about. expanding out of freelance or a small service and growing a service-based business, like, how do you think about that in terms of, you really wanna scale the expertise that you.

Um, and so you’ve gotta hire for gaps, but you maybe have some of that expertise, like how do you transition that and how do you, how do you think about that?

Kim Seals:
Well, I, I think scaling a service company is hard if, if you, as the CEO have to be involved in every service project that gets delivered, right?

Because you’ve got that expertise, right? So the question is, how can you either develop and grow more people who can do what you [00:16:00] do or hire more people who can do what you do, right? But again, it, um, The whole concept of the services play. Sometimes contractors are the best way to go there until you get an even steady stream of business.

And then with the contractors, you set what you pay them at the right price point based on what you’re charging the client for the services. So you’re still making money too, right? let’s say you have a, an independent contractor, you wanna pay them a hundred dollars.

You wanna make sure you’re able to charge them out of at least 200 an hour or more, right? Make sure you’re getting that margin on that. And again, they’re only getting paid if you’ve got work for them to do. and that is a very viable strategy for the early days of scaling until you get to that point where you’ve got enough customers where you feel comfortable taking on folks as employees and all that, that entails from a regulatory, from a, taxes perspective.

That you, would wanna actually hire folks as employees. So, some of the small purpose of firms I work with, they have a core nucleus of employees and then they have a nice pool of contractors. Mm-hmm. They can pull [00:17:00] in as you have those fights of demand and work, and you can pull those contractors in again based on their technical expertise.

that’s also a way you can fill the gap. let’s say you’re putting together an HR consulting firm and you think about all the different aspects you could consult on talent management, total rewards, change management technology, HR, technology, whatever it might be. You may say, look, we only get a small number of total rewards projects, but we get a lot of technology implementation projects.

So the folks we’re gonna hire as employees are all gonna be the technologists. But I’m gonna have a, a couple of resources on my speed dial that do total rewards consulting. So when I get asked to do it, I can still do it and I’m gonna tap into my co contractor network. it’s optimizing the model So that you have a viable strategy for how you’re gonna grow Because one of the things I’ve seen companies do that’s sort of like a death blow is they overhire. It’s like we gotta hire 10 people now because we’re probably gonna get 20 projects this year, and they go hire them [00:18:00] as employees and they’re sitting around earning a salary.

The work’s not there yet. Um, you’re the one out there selling it, right? Because you’re the ceo, you’re the face of the company, and then you’ve got these 10 mouths to feed and you maybe hired ’em on a little too soon, so you’re burning through cash. What if they were contractors that were, first to be called off the bench?

You’re not paying them unless they do the work. So you just have to think through your strategies and you have to understand, what it’s gonna take for you to grow and scale your business based on what you’re trying to do. 

Ellen Twomey:
Okay. Speaking of that, one more on this and then we’ll get more into money.

let’s say you, you, you’re a, a freelancer. When do you know it’s time to hire? How do you balance those two? 

when do you stop doing the work? 

Kim Seals:
When you’ve got credible, competent people that can, uh, represent your brand. That’s what I would say. If somebody in the services industry, who has built up, uh, delivery teams, I go out there, I sell the project, and then the client’s expecting me to stick around to deliver it.

It’s like I need to be bringing a few people along with me. So the client’s meeting them, they get to know them, they know they’ve got [00:19:00] the right skills and capabilities. I’m still ultimately responsible for the output. I’m perhaps doing some QA on the back end. I’m doing some coaching on the back end. I show up at key meetings, but I have a really solid team that’s actually delivering.

and they’re doing the day-to-day work. So how, how do you do that to where the client is still getting exactly what they bought? They’re still getting some of your mindshare on this project, but you’re not knee-deep in every aspect of the project. And then as far as when you should bring the employees on, I think you’ve really gotta look at your pipeline.

You’ve gotta look at the forecast of revenue, you have to be ruthless about your pipeline. Like how likely is this deal to close? what’s the next deal after it? Do I have enough sustainable work to bring on an employee or am I still in contractor mode?

Where, I need to sell three more of these projects to really get comfortable that this is what I need to hire for. as they say, it’s an art, it’s not a science, right? you’ve just gotta think it through in terms of, is the right time to pull the trigger and.

You know, I will say that’s much different [00:20:00] than salespeople. To me, it’s always the right time to pull the trigger on a salesperson, right? Because they themselves, they go sell deals, right? What I’m talking about are really the, in the services model, the people that deliver the work, what is that right balance of employees and contractors.

Ellen Twomey:
Just the, the way, like where your brain goes when you’re talking about margins and ruthless pipeline and optimizations and like, when you’re talking about those things, I think that it’s indicative of like, where should your brain space be?

Which sounds simple, except that when you’re doing the work, it’s really hard for your brain space to be there. It’s like, wait, I just wanna deliver a really high quality product. 

Kim Seals:
These services businesses depend on the right leverage model, right? You can’t have all the senior people doing all the work all the time. You’ve gotta leverage this down. You’ve gotta have, uh, the right delivery model for these projects, and that includes people at, different levels, people with different skillsets, different bill rates, different pay rate.

that all comes together for, um, for how you think about this. I sold this project to this client for [00:21:00] $200,000. Okay, now what’s the right way to staff it so that there’s, um, you know, it depends on what you’re looking for. So most of the time we’re looking for 50 to 55% gross margin on this project.

So what’s the right way to staff it so that we’ve got that kind of margin? you know, a lot of times you end up having to discount and you’ve gotta take all that into account. So, You know, the math matters and knowing how to run a profitable business matters. 

Ellen Twomey:
Love it. That’s fantastic. Okay, you talked about how you got involved with the jump fund, but I’d like you to talk about why you got involved and why that work.

Was meaningful to you, which I assume because you’ve been doing it, you know, it’s almost a decade so.

Kim Seals:
Sure. I mean, so the, one of the biggest problems we face out there is that women-led businesses don’t get the capital they need to grow their businesses at the same rate men do. I mean, if you look at some of the latest stats, and the stats have been the same for the 10 years I’ve been in this, it’s really kind of depressing, is, women, get about 2% of the VC money that’s out there now in early stage money, um, in angel money.

Then it’s a [00:22:00] bit higher, maybe 10. 12%. but in this, in the venture capital space, it’s still pretty low. And, we’re on a mission to get more women in check writer seats. And we’re on a mission to get more funding in the hands of women. So at the Jump Fund, our point of view has always been how can we create an ecosystem that helps the Southeast be the best place for a woman to, start and grow her company?

And that includes, Access to capital, access to the right coaching and support and mentorship and sponsorship that they need to be successful. So, that was our goals when we started this 10 years ago when we were not seeing women on the pitch stages at events. We weren’t seeing, women who were writing checks and, helping to finance other women.

And we got told at the time by, some of the guys that, women won’t invest in this asset class. Like it’s too risky. And it’s like, well, I think we just need to spend some time educating them. So we, me and my partner for the jump fund, we, when we raised our funds, uh, the first [00:23:00] fund was something close to 90% women.

And, the second fund, we had a lot of guys that wanted to come in and, uh, so we, took on a few good men and let them invest in fun too. but we did have to do a lot of education of what it means to invest in startups. we did a lot of coffee chats. We did a lot of one-on-one chats.

So we wanted to tackle the problem from both ends of the spectrum. How can we put more capital in the hands of women, and how can we get more women to invest in other women? 

Ellen Twomey:
And there is education that’s needed, right? I’m so familiar with this, with, with my, work in, in bringing women to technology.

It’s, it’s like, you know, they’re like, well, women don’t like technology. Well, maybe they don’t know enough about it. They don’t, maybe they didn’t had the exposure. Maybe, you know, it hasn’t been the most welcoming place. I mean, I just got a, just got a text from, The woman I worked with like early on and, um, I ended up coaching her and she’s just been like kinda a mentee of mine for, for a long time.

And, and now just a friend, but she, [00:24:00] she’s like, Hey, guess who’s the only woman in this, meeting of 12 people today? I’m like, yep, I know. it’s not, it’s changed and it hasn’t changed that much. Right? It’s like 20% of tech physicians are held by women, but really that’s, and Deloitte will say like 22, but then they like throw in like everything under the sun, right?

I mean, it’s like, oh, they bought coffee for the people on the tech team, tech or, you know, or like science or something, right? I, we just, there’s just, I, so I don’t even think it’s 20%, it sure doesn’t feel that way to me. I mean, to be clear, 

There’s so many men who are really helpful and welcoming, but there has to be so much education around what does this mean and why is this good for you? And I mean, I spent, years of my life like thinking about that and talking about it.

It turns, turns out it’s not really that straightforward and simple, even though at its core, I came to it early like, Hey, you should be interested in tech that’s meaningful, flexible, and well paid. But, but actually there’s so many complexities to that, 

Kim Seals:
We can’t solve this problem without men, We’ve gotta take the, tackle this problem from multiple directions and, I am not bashing men at all. I’m saying let’s [00:25:00] drive awareness. let’s have more gender diverse check writing teams so that when folks come into pit, There’s a more balanced perspective because, you know, like if you take Mtech, right?

I mean, when women come in and pitch, solutions that are for women, sometimes it’s difficult for the men in the room to understand the magnitude of the problem, or yes, what the body patterns are. But you know, the stats out there are clear that every buy decision in at least 90% of the households out there are made by women.

And when you talk about healthcare decisions in a household, it goes up to about 95%. And even, I dunno about the men in your life, but the men in my life who don’t have any women in their house, they still reach out to the women in their lives for advice. So, um, if you are ignoring this demographic of women, you’re ignoring key decision makers, key buyers, right?

you know, you and I have talked a lot about. Who are the people that are willing to spend money to solve the problem they have and who’s making those decisions about how they spend the money? Yes. And you know, you’ve gotta have women [00:26:00] in the mix. and the data is also very clear.

The gender diverse leadership teams outperform. Uh, yes. They’re smarter, they’re more capable, they go further. So why not put your money in companies that have women in these founding roles? And we don’t like to invest in all women led companies. Just like we obviously won’t invest in all men led companies.

We do like to see gender diversity and we like to see that optimal mix. I keep saying that, but it’s the optimal mix of talent that’s gonna bring these companies to success.. 

Ellen Twomey:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a fantastic point. I love it. Okay. Diving into like money, just like straight money talk. cause we talked about women and earning and.

why do you think women, like, from your perspective, why don’t they earn as much as they should? I’m putting shouldn’t quotes, and what can we do about it? 

Kim Seals:
Yeah, I think it’s important to understand pay equity and the gender gap as two different things, right? I think that the regulations out there are pretty clear that when you have the same two [00:27:00] people in the same job with the same skills and experience and background, they should be paying and you account for any other variables.

They should be being paid the same amount. I think the piece that most people don’t think enough about though, is the pay gap and what that means is, the VIN are predominantly the ones in the higher paying jobs than an organization, right? So when you think about, some of the more senior roles, that’s where you see men in those roles, and that’s why they’re making more money.

So when you look at this gender gap and you see that 82% number, that’s what it’s talking about is men, on average make 82% more than women. it’s not the issue of, Hey, you and I are both in the same job and you get paid 16 or 18% more than me? And we’re doing the same job.

That’s not what the gap is talking about. It’s talking about women sort of stopping at a certain level in the organization. They’re not getting further up in the organization and They’re not getting into those higher paying roles. And, again, this is a [00:28:00] very complex problem. some of it is women opting out, right?

Because either, they’ve got, caregiving roles at home, whether it’s parents or children. whatever that might be, where they’re saying, look, I can’t take on that next level because that next level requires me to travel 80% of the time, or that next level requires me to work seven days a week.

So the decision I’ve made for me and my family is this is as far as I’m gonna go. that’s one problem. The other problem is, uh, do women have enough sponsors when the decision’s being made about promotions and getting people to that next level, and you notice I’m using the word sponsor and not mentor 

I believe that women Women are over mentored and under sponsored. And a sponsor is somebody who talks about you when you are not in the room. So if in the room where we have a VP of sales role open, we’re trying to fill that VP of sales who’s in the room advocating for you as the person who’s been the top salesperson for the last three years, and saying, Hey, [00:29:00] we should have Ellen in this role as the VP of sales.

She has earned it. She has earned this opportunity. And, more often than not, it’s gotta be the men in the room because they’re the ones predominantly that are in the room. When those decisions are made, have one or two women. so first problem, women may be opting out. Second problem, women aren’t being sponsored enough when the opportunities come up.

And then the third problem, are we growing the pipeline so that we have a talent that’s ready to take it to that next level. And are we investing in women in the roles that matter? So, There’s this concept called feeder roll. Every organization has them. You may not know that you have them, but you have them, and they are the role that once you get in that role, your opportunities open up exponentially for where else you could go in the company to grow and succeed.

So let’s say inside sales rep is your feeder role, because once you’ve been an inside sales rep, there’s so many other places you can go in the organization as a step up and that next step, because you know so much around how we [00:30:00] grow our business and how we bring on new clients or expand relationships, look at that feeder role.

Do you have diverse talent in that feeder role? Are you hiring, people of all, races and genders? To help populate those feeder roles because if you are, you’re exponentially increasing your pro probability that your pipeline of great talent. Is going to be there. the companies that I see that are doing this well are focused on what their feeder roles are, and they’re focused on programs to make sure that they’re recruiting diverse talent.

They’re not just hiring the same people over and over again, but really looking to diversify and bringing on people who add to their culture. I’m not trying to find people who fit in my culture. I hire people who add to my culture and really expand our pipeline of talent. 

Ellen Twomey:
I love your definition of sponsorship. Women are over mentored and unsponsored and because now we have clarity around kind of going back into it [00:31:00] what we want, right? And so now, oh, what we want now. Now maybe what we need is to ask for sponsorship.

Like, Hey, will you sponsor? Hey. And it doesn’t have to be a woman’s sponsoring you, but like, hey, When you’re in those meetings and when you’re, I, I appreciate your mentorship, I appreciate your coaching, but you know, when there is an opportunity, please happy 

But I, I love that you said that can also give people who are in those meetings a little bit of pause to say, who am I gonna sponsor? it shouldn’t be like top of brain, you know, the person I just think about maybe, maybe I should be looking for it. And I love the theater roles too. That’s super interesting.

So there’s, there’s opting to a certain level and stopping. What about a woman who just says, I don’t really need that much money. I’m good with just like covering some household expenses.

What would you say to her?

Kim Seals:
Well, uh, first of all, I’m on a mission to stop women from judging other women. Mm. That, that is like a, a number one mission that I have right up there next to getting, uh, capital. It’s like what? The right answer for me may not be the right answer for you or the right answer for [00:32:00] the next person, right.

if that person has come to the thoughtful conclusion that, for whatever their personal situation might be, This is all I need to do. This is all I want to do, then, all right, well, how can I help you do what you want and need to do? even if it’s not what I would want or need to do.

Right. I was talking, to somebody who was coaching, uh, this lady and she just wanted, when we said, well, how much do you wanna work? What are you looking to do? She’s like, I just wanna earn enough money to pay for our family vacation. So that’s the thing I’m contributing to the family is our family vacation, because then I get to pick where we go and what we do, and that’s what I wanna do.

it’s like, all right, well, you know, then what’s that job? And she’s like, it needs to be flexible. I’ve gotta work around my kids. I’ve gotta do this and that. But again, this is all I want. And it may not be, what you or I would say the reason we’re working.

And then you’ve got a lot of women who are like, look, I’ve gotta make enough money to put food on the table for my family. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. but I also have, I’ve got a, an aging parent that’s living with me. [00:33:00] I’ve got kids, I’ve got this, I’ve got that. we’ve all got our things and what’s important to one of us may not be the same set of priorities for someone else, and that’s okay.

How can we help people be successful in what it is they want to do? And you know, then you’ve got the folks that are like, I wanna be the c e o of the company, or I wanna be, a nuclear scientist, or whatever it might be. Right? And how can we help the, help women achieve those goals as well?

so I don’t ever try to force, goals on anyone. I’d like to just ask, what is it you’re trying to accomplish? What are your goals? where do you wanna take this? And then what can I do to help you? 

Ellen Twomey:
I completely agree with, you know, not judging women,

Being that I stayed at home with my kids, I feel like I have a pretty healthy, you know, I, I really, I, I don’t judge those decisions. it would be silly if I did, cause since I’ve made them myself, but like, but I do in my coaching a lot.

Push. Women say, are you sure? Because sometimes what we think we want is coming from fear. Mm-hmm. And not necessarily from like, [00:34:00] what we want. So when they say to me like, oh, I don’t really need to make that much. I’m like, I think you do. I’m challenge you judgment. Right. But, I do think that women, oftentimes because when you like, okay, so what about this woman who like earns her vacation?

Like, and then she’s like, I do it. and then she’s just gonna be satisfied. I don’t think so. I think once she does that, she’ll be like, maybe I can upgrade my mini van. 

Kim Seals:
Maybe I can be the one that pays the kid the next kid’s interest tuition into college. Right. I mean, right, right, right.

Exactly. 

Ellen Twomey:
So like once you reach a level, I think it’s it’s an interesting growth opportunity to like look at what else, there can be trade-offs.

it’s not always like higher level more work, which is one of the things that I think is, is tricky.

Kim Seals:
Well, I think the point that you’re making is a great one, which is as part of us coaching and, and mentoring and, and sponsoring women, is to really understand, you know, ask some probing questions, push a bit, make sure we really understand what’s happening 

because that would be really sad if somebody didn’t wanna do something because they were, [00:35:00] afraid to try it or they didn’t think they could be successful, so why try it? you have to find that right balance of, you’ve told me what your goals are.

Let me, let me challenge you a bit, let me probe a bit. And then if. If they’re, if that really is your goal, let me help you get that goal. But if you are coming from a place of fear, cuz you know, I, I hear from folks a, a lot. Like, I, I didn’t apply for the role because I was sure they weren’t, wouldn’t hire me or I didn’t apply for the role because they had these 10 criteria and I only met nine of the 10.

So that one thing that I couldn’t do, so I didn’t apply for the role. So you gotta get those people and make sure that you’re understanding what’s behind it. sure, I think as coaches and mentors, we’ve gotta, we’ve gotta push people to think. Bigger. If they want to think bigger and maybe they just need to get outta their comfort zone.

again, it’s that tricky balance of I don’t wanna push on you what my goals for you are, but I do wanna understand, have you thought big enough? based on what you wanna do and you’re not letting fear or doubt or, this need that women have to be perfect a hundred percent of the time, standing [00:36:00] in your way of perhaps doing something a bit more.

Ellen Twomey:
Yes, for sure. I love that because the stats around, application like you did the nine outta 10, it’s like men, men will apply on average when they have 50% of the qualifications. And women, it’s somewhere around 80 to 90. I mean, it’s crazy. 

I mean, when you read a job description, and I’m sure you’ve done this many times, like you’re asking for everything that you can possibly think of that would be, you know, fantastic for that role. But there might be some things that are not on that list that you didn’t think of. And so it’s a balance.

and a friend of mine, Margaret Daws and I had on, on the podcast, she was one of my first guests. she’s in a chief of role again. She was at Red Hat and now at Aptio. And she would say, I don’t want a job where I’m a hundred percent, I meet a hundred percent of the qualifications.

I can’t grow at all. I need something where I can grow into it. And I think that that’s a very different mindset than a lot of women who are perfectionists come into it with. Um, instead of like, I’ve gotta meet all this criteria and, be perfectly aligned. 

Kim Seals:
When I’m consulting with, uh, clients who tell [00:37:00] me we can’t attract women to apply for our jobs, what do you think we’re doing wrong?

The first place we start is the job posting. so like, for example, a lot of ’em say drive for results or, rockstar, whatever, right? You put all the, these ninja. We have Code Ninja. Yeah. Yeah. and what’s happening is it’s turning off the women that could be, it’s potentially turning off the women that would wanna apply for that job because they’re like, I wouldn’t say I’m a rockstar.

I’m a good, solid player. I’m a solid A player. I’m not a rockstar. Or, you know, so looking at the language, but then also looking at the, you know, you’ve listed 20 things you expect this person to be able to do to take the job. Only five of those are probably knockout criteria. Like if you can’t do the five, then yeah, you can’t do the job.

The rest are nice to have. So how do we really frame your job posting with what are the minimum requirements and then what are the nice to haves? Like you get a leg up if you can do these other things right? But, how can we write the job postings in a way that are realistic to what.

The job is, I, early in my career, I, I got a chance to hire somebody. I was, I was new in, [00:38:00] in hiring and my boss said, Hey, put the job description together and then come back to me. Let’s talk about it. So I, I had written, like, I had spent hours on this job description and it was, amazing. It was like, it was five pages long, it was this and that.

And I gave it to my boss and I was like, this is it. This is what we need for the role. And, um, he looked at me and he said, so are they gonna cure cancer too? I was like, Oh. And, and he was like, cut half this bullshit out. Like, you know, let’s go for the job. You know, what do we really need? Because we’re never gonna find this person to do this job.

That person does not exist. So, um, it was like, all right, let me go back and rethink what I thought we needed in this role. And I think people just tend to do it. You just talk in every idea you’ve ever had about what the ideal candidate would be, and you don’t realize you’re scaring off a percentage of your population who are not going to apply because nobody can meet all those criteria.

Ellen Twomey:
That’s fantastic. 

Thank you for sharing that. That we learned. We learned. You’re doing right. It’s absolutely, it’s a great lesson. [00:39:00] So what advice would you give to a woman who wants to earn more, but she really isn’t sure how to do that?

Kim Seals:
Well, I think it’s a matter of, what are the skills and capabilities that you bring to the situation that people will pay you for, right?

And then go find those jobs. I think I’ve told you this story and, I’m not gonna use any names, but one of, one of my family members, has this grand plan to make a billion dollars so he can buy the Denver nuggets. 

And first of all, it’s like, what an amazing goal. All right? now how are we gonna get there? what is it that you can do and, uh, to make a billion dollars? He’s like, I don’t know yet, but I’m sure I can figure it out.

I was like, all right, well, how much, how close are we? He goes, I have $400. I was like, alright, we’ve got some work to do here. And so pretty soon, like everybody in the family started throwing ideas into the pot about what could we do to, to make the billion dollars, because that’s our, that’s our goal. so it’s fine to throw a goal out there, but you have to be realistic about how are you gonna get there.

So just having a goal that says, I wanna make more money. all right, now, how do you wanna [00:40:00] make more money? Do you wanna go look for another job at another organization at a different level where you can get, more salary? Do you wanna go ask your boss for a raise and, and, and make the case for what you’ve done?

That, would say, Hey, I deserve a raise. do you wanna switch career paths and take some skills you have that you might not have been using before into a different career path where you do make more money? so it’s, if that’s your goal, make more money now. how can you do that?

what are the possibilities? and I’m a big proponent of pros and cons with, and, you know, write it down. Like what is it that you think you can do, that could get you more money? and just start there. it sounds pretty simple, but then hopefully you have a board of advisor, personal advisors, if you will, the people that you go to when you have questions or problems or thoughts or you want ideas, go find that board of advisors and ask them, what do you think I could be doing to make more money?

What are the ideas out there? Like, you know, you don’t have to solve this problem on your own. And some of the best ideas, uh, you can get from your board of advisors who are like, you know, I think you’re [00:41:00] phenomenal at x. But I don’t really see you leveraging that in your job. Maybe there’s a job out there where you could do more of X and make more money, or maybe you wanna go start your own business and ultimately have control over how much money you’re making based on the product or solution that you’re looking to sell.

Ellen Twomey:
That is fantastic advice and this has been a phenomenal, conversation. And so I think we’ll leave it at that. And I just wanna say, Kim, thank you so much. I’m gonna put you on the spot. Can we do this again? We’ll have to do this again cause we didn’t cover everything. I feel like I can’t believe our, our time is up.

Kim Seals:
Yes, we definitely have to do it again. I think we probably have at least 20 topics we wanna cover. So yes, we can do it again. 

Ellen Twomey:
Hey if you enjoy listening to this podcast you have to sign up for the you are techY email list Imagine being in the tech job of your dreams Join me to get the strategies training and never-ending support. To get hired sign up at youaretechy.com That’s Y O U A R E T E C H Y.com I’ll see you next time