You are techY podcast

Ellen (00:00):

You are listening to the You are techY podcast, episode number 153.

Voiceover (00:10):

Welcome to the, You are techY podcast where it’s all about growing in your techy-ness. So you can find the tech job of your dreams. And now your host technology learning coach Ellen Twomey.

Ellen (00:27):

Hey moms, are you trying to break into tech? Are you wondering what skills you really need to get hired and how those skills can be worth $45 an hour? Not that $25 an hour you thought when you first started thinking about going back to work? If so, then the You are techY membership is for you. Our combination of courses, coaching and community, come with a mentor support. You need to keep moving forward into your tech career. It’s like no other membership available. We have the exact skills employers are looking for. You learn how to maximize your income with portfolio ready skills that hiring managers are seeking, not to mention the steps you can skip. So you don’t find yourself down that endless tech learning rabbit hole. Join me as we walk you step-by-step through the getting hired process in tech. Sign up at youaretechy.com. That’s Y O U A R E T E C H Y.com. I can’t wait to see you in our membership.

Ellen (01:22):

Evelyn Haupt is a UX designer who has recently made the transition to full-time work after a journey of moving through a work as an artist and salesperson. She has an undergraduate degree in illustration and has worked for several years as a paid freelance artist. In addition to her work in sales for a luxury appliance distributor, Evelyn lives in Utah with her 10 year old daughter and her husband Jacob. Evelyn, welcome to the podcast.

Evelyn (01:50):

Thank you.

Ellen (01:51):

Well this is truly a full circle moment, so why don’t you just start off talking about what you were just talking about how you listened to the podcast and now you’re on the podcast and just tell us about that. Yeah,

Evelyn (02:00):

I’m trying to remember when I first started listening to your podcast, but it seems like a lifetime ago and it was after I had completed a bootcamp and I was trying to level up on my own by then and I found your podcast and it was just the thing I was looking for other women’s stories plus a very energetic and positive person leading them that like really helped me believe that I could be in this space. And at the time, like I said, I had to finish the bootcamp and so I was in the space of like, okay, I think I can do it. What else do I need? I just spent so many hours. So it’s just crazy to think about all the hours spent listening to other women’s stories and just all the tears really that I dead on these car rides throughout the state as I was going from appointment to appointment or from my home to the office.

Evelyn (03:01):

And in some cases, you know, driving other people including my BP where I had to search it awkwardly Beth News. It is crazy, but it truly, like you said, it’s a truly full circle moment where I just would listen to these women’s stories and just marvel at how they were able to do what they did. And it was so cool to see how varied the backgrounds were and that made me feel great and like it was possible and I feel like in this podcast they would really truly talk about their lives and all the different parts and pieces that, you know went into this decision and their timeline and how they felt and that was so valuable.

Ellen (03:45):

I love it. Right. It’s like a true story, not the sugarcoated version. Everyone should do it.

Evelyn (03:51):

It’s just, yeah. And even, you know, I don’t know if you ever, but a lot of times people do post like real factual, like I mean the middle of the job search and this is what I’m doing, but there’s just something different about hearing someone tell their story and I don’t know, I guess in particular your audience is a lot of women and mothers and that’s where I was. And you always would talk about things like, you know, the backer that you have is exactly what you need to be here. And so that was really important to me too.

Ellen (04:21):

I love it. Okay, cool. We’re gonna talk about that. So when you look at your career journey, what were the highs and then also the lows that stand out to you. Tell us about kind of that story and then also if you can like your feelings and emotions about that as you’re going through those highs and lows. Well

Evelyn (04:39):

I guess I, my story’s interesting because I didn’t ever start off thinking I would pursue a true career in the sense that I’d be working outside of the home and providing income for my family. That was not something that initially set out to do until I had a kid and I realized that

Ellen (04:58):

They need to eat <laugh>.

Evelyn (05:00):

Just that I needed that balance I guess. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think my entire, you know, 10 years of motherhood and specifically last five years of being a working parent with or without knowing, I was really searching for a job where I could balance this need for fulfillment and achievement while also being really present with my daughter. And I thought, you know, freelancing as an artist was going to be that for me. And so a lot of the jobs I would do and still work on my freelance work to grow it into a full-time thing. And it wasn’t until the pandemic where it was a moment of reflection like it was for so many people for me where I just sat down and I was like, okay, what do I really, really want? And am I going in that direction because I felt like I was just being swept up in this career and sale and I was like, I don’t think I really want this.

Evelyn (05:55):

And then looking at being a freelance illustrator, I’ve had pretty good success but I was also looking at that and realizing that the results that I wanted wasn’t going to match up with the life that I wanted in that space. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it was, I guess when I look at my career journey, the highs are whenever I achieved something that I was putting a lot of effort into mm-hmm <affirmative> and that I did and I did that over and over again in all these different spaces. In my freelance career I worked with some big names and big companies that I never thought I would and then just getting a job that’s always like, you put a lot of effort into this interview process and preparing for it and feeling like you can do this. And I think that was the hardest part for me is like convincing myself that I have what it takes. And once I got there I was like, okay, like I can interview, I can walk in and it’s great And I have gotten up until UX I had gotten every job that I interviewed <laugh>,

Ellen (06:56):

So, and you didn’t get every job that you interviewed for in UX? 

Evelyn (06:59):

No. And so that was like a totally different experience for me. I was entering a field rather than going for a specific job at a specific company and zeroing in on that I was more gaining these skills and seeing interviewing to see where I wanted to be and that was a different approach. Mm-hmm. And very emotionally sex.

Ellen (07:21):

Did anyone ever say anything to you that was like hurtful or that you felt like was, you know, within the UX feedback? Yeah,

Evelyn (07:29):

No, because I guess looking back, I think some of the feedback in interviews, I don’t know if I really believe in that, but I went through art school and they really teach you to take feedback in a way that isn’t personal. And so that was a muscle I had constantly built up for 10 years. And so I would say I’m really good at taking feedback and not taking it personally and just changing the thing and moving on. But what was different of UX is I had to decide whether the feedback applied to me or not or whether that is something I believed about my skills and whether I wanted to change something and move forward with that or go a different direction with a different belief. That was interesting and tricky and I think working with you was really helpful for that piece where I needed to see myself and have clarity on where I thought my skills were and base all the feedback off of that. Whereas before I always saw the person giving me feedback as the professional in the field. Of course I would take their feedback and pivot. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and so this was really different <laugh>.

Ellen (08:40):

Right. And that it is different because defending your design decisions is a part of the job. And if you just say, oh you’re the expert, you know better, there’s this whole dynamic there. There are lots of ways where this can go wrong. Number one, there’s a ton of bad design out there. There’s a ton of design that’s like been hastily done or done the same way it’s always been done. That probably will always be the case. But that was one of the reasons I wanted ux. Then there’s this other piece of like, but the majority of tech positions, 75% are held by men. And so they might be, and we may have a different perspective as a woman, as a mom and what do you know, we’re also the customers and so where they might see something is correct or that’s the way it’s done, we may have a different perspective.

Ellen (09:27):

And so if we’re ever gonna like change and have our design and that’s just one element. It’s not all just male female different. It’s not like that. You know, you work with men, I work with a ton of men, they’re great, they have great um, experience, but we, the point is like we have a voice to add and it’s not always, it’s not always that feedback thing. But I do love what you said about the art muscle and like how you were, you learn to take feedback. I mean this is why I think UX design is so good for, I mean and honestly development too pack is so good for your personal development because there’s so much feedback involved. It’s like you have to, if you just beat yourself up every time you get feedback then it’s just miserable. So you have to learn that muscle. I think that’s really, that’s awesome we did that.

Evelyn (10:06):

Yeah. And it’s also an interesting space because you are also giving feedback to someone else on the product and telling them how you can help them make it better. And so it goes both ways. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and that’s also really interesting

Ellen (10:20):

And I think what’s hard, it’s like, you know, one of the decision points is like when do you feel like you’re someone who’s allowed to do that, right? Like how much experience do you need? And the answer is not much. You get to start having opinions and you be wrong, but you have to have an opinion to get there.

Evelyn (10:36):

Yes, absolutely. And I think that I, with my career search and progress through this space, I feel like I would vacillate between, I’ve been an artist, I’ve been in sales, I can present, I can talk to people, I can solve problems. I got this. And then coming to an interview and being faced with the design challenge and knowing that the skill that I brought to the table was almost there. You know, like there was these pieces that I was missing skill wise but it was so hard to see until I sat down in front of someone and was doing the work. And so I went back and forth between like I don’t understand why I don’t have a job yet. And then being in an interview being like, I don’t know, I dunno anything. You know, I remember being in this point after my boot cab and right before working with you where I sat down with a friend who was a UX diner and I, and I said to her, I think it was pretty pretentious of me to just think I could just jump in because I was past the point of knowing the basis skills and before there was like a gap between being work-ready and knowing the basic skills.

Evelyn (11:44):

And it was at that point where I was like why did think I could do like this is a field and people take it so seriously and there’s so much that goes in here and she’s just like, yeah <laugh>.

Ellen (11:58):

Yeah

Evelyn (11:59):

She did. Cause she knows and at first I was like, I thought you were gonna say you got this. But it was an interesting experience because she’s a senior UI designer and she knows what it’s like and even though she knew that I could do it and she was so positive and every time I would text her she would respond with a question no matter what hour the day it was. If I had a UX question she would always readily respond. And so I knew that she had my back but I also could tell that she understood how I was feeling and that it is like a big field and there is so much history behind it and so many experts within it. But that doesn’t mean that I couldn’t be in this space too.

Ellen (12:40):

Right, and add value at the level that you were in. Yeah. I love it. Okay, I have a question for you. So in your opinion, you’ve now made the transition, you got higher.

Evelyn (12:50):

Yes. I love it.

Ellen (12:52):

But why do you think that while some women make this transition so many never do, what’s your opinion on that?

Evelyn (13:00):

I thought this was such an interesting question and it caused me to step back and think because I don’t think that there is an easy answer to this. It was a lot of work and I think so many of the women that find themselves in this space where they wanna do something different already have so many challenges on their plate. And I think for so many people it is so hard to add another thing like our audiences mothers or people with past careers or both. And whenever I would listen to these stories of women on the podcast, they had a lot of things going on, you know, and they have done a lot of things and I think for a lot of people it’s two things. It’s understanding the field and the breadth of possibilities within it. And I think that piece can be missing but it’s also the fact that it is going to take a complete mental shift.

Evelyn (13:52):

Tons of time, tons of work and you have to be all in for it to be a possibility. And I think for a lot of people, if they know that a friend that’s gonna be even harder to make that decision and to make that job. And I think that I was able to do it because I was like, well I can do this and <laugh>, I have like the visual skills, I have all these other skills and it shouldn’t be that hard. But then it was, and that’s the piece where I was like, it was a little bit naive but that for me and my personality being a little bit naive allowed me to just be like, oh let’s just go for it <laugh> but I to try to

Ellen (14:29):

The work. It’s a great point. Yeah, I think that’s such a great point. Like it’s so much more work than you think and I think that it’s not that they’re not willing to put in the work, but what you said is so true. It’s like you have to be all in, you have to understand that like you’re doing this no matter what because otherwise you can think that you’re doing so much work and that is something is wrong with that. That’s not the way it’s supposed to be.

Evelyn (14:54):

Yeah. And like I look at so many people around me and I know that they already have the skills they would shine in this space but it maybe isn’t what they want. You know? And it can be frustrating being on this side or even throughout the process where I was working towards it where if they express like, oh I wish I could do something different, like you should go in a tech, I’m doing it, you could do it too. And then watching their face just like be overwhelmed and like, oh yeah, I don’t know. You know? And just realizing that like maybe it isn’t what everybody wants, you know and that’s okay. Right. But they could <laugh> if they wanted to. That’s right. They

Ellen (15:31):

Absolutely could if they wanted to, they could. I love it. I love that. Let’s talk about your job search. I feel like, I honestly feel like most of the women I come across, they’ll put in all the work to do the portfolio, do the project, they’ll learn the skills, but it’s really the job search where work that gets people stuck. So I’d love to like dive into your job search and your interviewing and just tell us what it felt like to go through that process like the first time and then was it worth the effort and pain and time and kinda walk us through what that was like for you.

Evelyn (16:05):

Yeah, so when you say the first time, is it like within ux?

Ellen (16:10):

So that’s what I was thinking but maybe not. Cause you said you got every job you ever applied for. So tell me about that too.

Evelyn (16:18):

Yeah, so I decided to go into the workforce five years ago, like officially once my daughter went into kindergarten and we were lucky with full time. So I started a job search and it wasn’t easy but you know me, I like to over prepare for everything. And so the job that I was going for was this position at Nordstrom and I was very excited about it. I prepared and I had all the great outfits and everything and so I nailed it and, and I got it. And so it was interesting because after I outgrew that space, like I was talking to someone and they were like, oh this job is open. And so I went in and they reached for that and I also got it. I felt like at the time I understood what I was going into and I would prepare adequately. I would over prepare.

Evelyn (17:06):

I had all these documents and folders and like I packed this interview questions and all these things and we talked about a little bit going into ux, the space is a little bit different and the approach is a little bit different. And so when I started my job search in ux, I looked at my files and since I started recording how many applications when I started keeping track it is 10 months. So once I started keeping track and I know I had applied a few positions before I started keeping track, but it’s 10 months. So I applied over 35 different places and I had five interviews with five different

Ellen (17:47):

Companies. You’re such a salesperson. All these numbers I love it. Specific

Evelyn (17:52):

10 months

Ellen (17:53):

For you to share. I love it. Ian. Ian, just to be clear, like your community building game was no joke. Like you went to a lot of meet up connected with people like routinely cuz that whole database list too of people that you were connected

Evelyn (18:07):

With document for that too. Yeah. So it was really interesting and I, that piece I really went into because of your podcast and I was like, oh that absolutely makes sense. Like why wouldn’t I be out there like talking to people and seeing who’s even in my space. And so I hit that pretty hard and it was so exhausted. Like you said, the job search part is a type of work that isn’t very outlined and you know, you put in all this work and you kind of just see what’s going to fit and sometimes it feels like throwing spaghetti at the wall, it felt like a lot of interviews were like that where it’s like okay, let’s just be who you are and you can see who I am and let’s just see what we have here. And so I wasn’t super nervous for a lot of my interviews because I have changed my way of thinking about it where it’s like we’re both in a discovery process. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, we’re both learning about each other. And so that helped take the edge off quite a bit. It was pretty painful just because like I said, I was used to this different track record of

Ellen (19:14):

Right, you go in, you get hired and now you’re like 10 months, 35 applications, five interviews. I love what you said that it takes the pain away when it’s a discovery process. I always say it like this, you are evaluating them as much as they are evaluating you. Yes.

Evelyn (19:29):

And I wrote that down and I would think about that over and over. So I would come into an interview with questions, lots of questions and that was really helpful too.

Ellen (19:38):

It’s important that you are the right fit for them. Like it’s not always,

Evelyn (19:43):

It’s not, there’s nothing absolutely doesn’t

Ellen (19:44):

Mean there’s nothing wrong with you or them if it’s not the right fit. Right. And just sometimes it’s just not the right fit.

Evelyn (19:50):

And I got to the point where I was willing to take jobs that were not the right fit and I, we talked about some of those and it was just, you know, it was like a few months where I was like, I will just take anything. I’m ready for this, I want to work, I’m ready to step into the next phase of my life and whatever that looks like, I’m here for it. Like I’ll just work through it and then pivot and it’s fine. And I interviewed at a couple different places where it was clearly not the right fit and the pay wasn’t where it needed to be and the team didn’t align with what I was looking for or wanted.

Ellen (20:29):

I can remember. Yeah.

Evelyn (20:31):

But they were like, we love you, you have what it takes. And somebody, nobody has said that to me at that point in the interview process. It was always like, we like you, you’re really great at articulating and communicating, but your skills are just not quite there yet. And I would be like, well what’s left? You know? And so that was really frustrating because I kept reading all these things where it’s like when your hiring managers are just looking for soft skills and personality and willingness to work. But when I would get into the interview process, it just wasn’t true. They wanted that, but they also wanted a specific level of experience or skill set. And I think it was a lot of the time just the people I was interviewing were looking for those things and that’s why they weren’t the right fit, you know? Right. But I should

Ellen (21:19):

Wanna, can we talk about that a little bit more? Yeah. So like, I mean you said this, but I don’t know if everyone can quite understand. So like this is what happens. Okay. When you doubt yourself, you doubt that your dream job is possible. I don’t know what it is. You know, I’m a faithful person so I don’t know what the challenge is, but I see this every time. It’s like every time before my students get hired there’s this challenge, right? So you had someone in your network who was like, oh yeah, let me introduce you here, let me give you help you get this job here. Like you have a lot of really applicable skills, you can get hired in a lot of different jobs. And we looked at it and we were like, okay, is this the right for you? And like you were saying, you were kind of at this desperation point where you’re like, whatever, I’ll just take, I’ll just take whatever it is. And then when you said no to those things, then you got your dream job. Like that’s pretty much the timeline that happened, isn’t it? I mean that’s from my perspective. What do you

Evelyn (22:13):

Think? I think a lot of it was pretty serendipitous. I dunno if that’s the right, use the word, but

Ellen (22:20):

I don’t know either yet.

Evelyn (22:20):

You know, the job that I was prepared to go for ended up on their end not working out. They weren’t able to do the full time that I was looking for. And in that sense I was like, well I can’t do that even though I would have worked there even when it didn’t align or anything. So it was both sides where, you know, it didn’t work out on their end.

Ellen (22:43):

Yep.

Evelyn (22:43):

And it was better for me that way. But then it, I remember talking to you also as I was trying to make this shift. I was interviewed for a job that was similar to the role I was in sales and I was like, you know, this is like would be cool while I was transitioning because it would be like a pay raise and all these cool things. And you were like, why would you do that <laugh>? You’re like, is this your dream job? No. <laugh> is

Ellen (23:15):

This step towards your dream job? No answer. Okay. Yeah. Why would you do that? Because it’s awkward, it’s hard to go through this. It’s hard to not take more money, hit all the things like it has to be, you know, you need support to get through this. And it’s challenging because

Evelyn (23:30):

It was so hard to hold out. That was the hardest part.

Ellen (23:34):

Yeah. To hold out and 10 months. Like I think there are a lot of people listening like I would love 10 months. But it, it is hard when you’re going through it,

Evelyn (23:43):

It feels like a life because we would talk about this so much where I had my full-time job, I was working on my skills, I was also networking and at times I was still freelancing as well and trying to participate in all the school things and just, it was just so much for that length of time. Like I was burning the kennel both ends for 10 months and it just was not sustainable. And we would talk about how can I make this more sustainable? How can I continue this journey without, you know, totally being based out in a ditch, you know at one point.

Ellen (24:19):

Right. Exactly. Look at it Michelle. That’s the pain

Evelyn (24:22):

<laugh>.

Ellen (24:23):

Yeah. I don’t know if you know the title the episode yet, but it’s like your dream job. So, cause I know that you happen to really like your job. So tell me what your day to day looks like as a UX designer and Yeah, like just talk about it.

Evelyn (24:40):

Okay. It’s crazy to make this switch just because of how I turn into this. Um, and I guess I will know also that when we interviewed, you described this where it would just feel right and it would feel easy and airy and that was the interview process here. And it has been so incredible to step into this space with a team that already believes in me and values what I have to say right from day one. Like it’s so mind blowing to me.

Ellen (25:14):

I love it

Evelyn (25:15):

A little emotional because it’s, I feel like I had been trying to do what exactly what I’m doing in this space in so many different other workspaces where nobody asked me to do it. And so it wasn’t a thing that was wanted <laugh> or

Ellen (25:30):

Appreciated maybe.

Evelyn (25:31):

Yeah. And so now I’m getting pages in this thing that I was always trying to do in different spaces and it wasn’t quite working out, but it’s exactly what they need and exactly what they want and I don’t need to do anything outside of that. And that is so crazy sweet. So my day to day now it’s been seven days <laugh>, so a week and two days. And so I’m still fairly new, but the day today is so awesome. We start with a standup, which is a quick connecting, almost like a roll call of everybody says what they did the day before, what they’re working on this day and what their blockers are. And I love that so much because we get to support each other and we know where everyone is at and we’re all working towards the same goal and we’re just talking about the different pieces we’re working on towards that goal.

Evelyn (26:23):

And so when you would talk about the agile process, I feel like I would kind of understand, but I didn’t really know what that looked like until I was in it. And in my mind it’s goal setting as a team and then making a task list and everybody picks the ones that apply to them that they wanna work on that day. And we’re so slowly working together, crossing off these to-do lists that I love. I love to-do list, we’re crossing off these things towards that same goal and every two weeks we evaluate did we reach that goal? Did we finish off all our items on a to-do list? If not, that’s okay, we can move them somewhere else where it makes sense. It’s fine. Like whether, and you just evaluate and pivot and do it again. And I love it so much

Ellen (27:08):

<laugh>. That’s so great. So are you spending most of your time in stigma? Are you spending, just give everyone like a little bit of insight into your UX work?

Evelyn (27:18):

Yeah, so we do our standup and you pick what you’re gonna work on that day. And I think every company has a little bit of a different way to organize that information. Ours is shortcut and I pick what I’m gonna work on that day and I op, I do use Figma. So I’ll open up my Figma file, start working on it. What’s really great about the particular team I’m working in is that they are very patient with each other and they love it and they’re always available to answer questions. So their way of communication you can just chat and I think that takes a lot of the pressure of an email off where it’s like, hey, I have a quick question and they can either ping you or hop on a zoom and answer your question or give you some more context on the problem you’re trying to solve.

Evelyn (28:08):

And so because I’m new, I have a lot of questions and a lot of times I don’t really understand the landscape of the problem I’m trying to solve. Um, the last week has been a lot of looking at user flows, seeing what I can grasp and then formulating questions of like, okay, I think I’m missing this piece of information, can you explain that to me? And then going back into the Figma file and applying it and see what I understood from that process. And so it’s a lot of this back and forth, which I love because I love talking to people and I love that everyone is just so available to chit chat and to answer these questions. And I love pushing pixels. And so this stage of my career, I love the wire premium process. I love organizing. And so I approach my Figma files as like an opportunity to organize information and to input new information and see how it feels and to show it to people. And I just have to say how amazing it is to get a positive response on something that you worked on and you did. I love it.

Ellen (29:13):

So you actually, I already know this but I’ll just ask it. So, so you actually already got complimented on your work, right?

Evelyn (29:19):

Yes. It’s like the first week and you know, the first week is always tricky and one of the biggest challenges, and this was one of the questions you have for me, one of the biggest challenges right now is that not only am I stepping into my first role as a UX designer full-time, but I am also learning a whole new field. So I work in the health tech sector I guess I would say. So I have to learn the actual field of study that I’m working with in mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I have to learn what the product is doing and the breadth of the existing product and why they wanna take it in addition to being a new UX diner. And so juggling these pieces have been pretty challenging. But the UX principles, that’s why they hired me and I know those. And so we talked that first week of, he pulled out an example page and he’s like, this screen isn’t working for us.

Evelyn (30:16):

We would love, you know, some changes. This is just an example. And because I didn’t have like any tickets or stories written yet for me, one of the days that I finished my HR work, I was like, I’ll just dive in and see what we can do here. And they loved it and they’re like, yes, let’s run with this. We talked a little bit more about the specifics of what was needed on that page and I just designed a whole flow out. And once I finished the product manager, I guess he, the chief technology officer put it in the chat with all these jifs of like starry eyes, look what Evelyn did. And everybody was like, oh my gosh, that’s so cool. And I just was like, what? And then they were like, this is what we’re presenting next Friday. Cuz they didn’t have something to present or they were still trying to decide what they were gonna present to a company at the demo. At the demo, at the demo. So at the end of the two weeks when you evaluate what the tech team has been doing, they present it to the company and they’re like, this is what we’re doing.

Evelyn (31:21):

And you know, it was so just insane to me that I was able to add value right away and add value in a way that they wanted to show other people what I had done. That was just bananas. 

Ellen (31:39):

Love It. Love it. Okay, couple more questions here. This is awesome. So

What role has motherhood played in your career decision?

Evelyn (31:49):

I think we, we touched on that a little bit, but consciously and subconsciously it has been the reason I’ve done what I’ve done. Okay. So in motherhood has consciously and subconsciously affected each decision I have made in regards to my career <laugh>. I feel like I am a better mother when I can go out and do the things that I love and feel fulfillment and talk with others, make an impact and then shut the door on that and come home and leave everything else behind and just have her, hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that’s not the safe for everybody. You know, some people really thrive in the stay at home space and they’re able to do the thing that I just described within their home where maybe it’s like whatever they might be working on and then kids, you know. But I wasn’t able to make that distinction and I needed some outside input or structure maybe to be able to really truly focus on what it is that I wanna accomplish as a mother also as a person. And so I think coming to realize and accept that was its own long journey, but once I was able to accept and realize that then I could start looking for a job that would allow me to do that exactly how I wanted to.

Evelyn (33:19):

Whereas before it was kind of like a placeholder or you know, I was kind of, I didn’t have the right direction to find the right job that would allow me to be the kinda mother that I wanted to be. And I, it’s only been like a week, but I do feel like this is exactly what I was looking for, where I am lucky enough to be working in a fully revoked environment. And that has been a huge game changer because I, I always wanted to be home. If she came home from school, I that like touchpoint was really important to me for many years. It was kind of hit and miss where sometimes I would be, sometimes I wouldn’t, sometimes I wouldn’t be home for dinner. Sometimes I’d have to travel, which was fine. But that piece was important to me. Being able to hop over and go to the Halloween parade or be part of a field trip, I was able to do that as a sales rep because I did have some flexibility in scheduling. But the piece that I have now is the fact that I tend shut off my computer and not feel burdened to think about what I’m doing in the space where I’m supposed to be with my kid. You know, where it’s like that mental balance is there now where I have the space to hold both. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it’s really awesome.

Ellen (34:35):

I love it. That’s so great. All right, last question. What advice would you give a woman, especially a mom who’s trying to break into tech? What advice do you have for her?

Evelyn (34:45):

Well, first that I love you and I love what you’re doing

Evelyn (34:50):

<laugh> that the fact that you want it is the reason why you deserve it. Cause we talked about how if you don’t want it, it’s just too hard. So if you want it like then it’s for you. I would also say be prepared to do the work that is pretty difficult. But also know that you have everything already, which is something that you will always say and, but it’s hard to believe it I guess. But once you do believe it, then it’s like this hill that you’ve crossed. I would say my biggest leveling up piece was when I started doing contract work.

Evelyn (35:33):

And you talked about how a lot of times your was to push me in the pool. And I thought about this when I thinking about advice to give. And it is true that if you’re trying to learn how to swim outside of the water, you’re not going to learn. And so you can learn the technique, but until you get in the water, you’re not gonna know how to swim. And so that contract work and doing, finding the right fit for that was also a little bit challenging. But it happened perfectly where I was able to do a very small part-time work with a very experienced person, founder and designer. And that’s where I leveled up the fastest, where I had done what I could on my own. And so it brought me here and then that took me to the place where now I could do this full time.

Evelyn (36:24):

And so that contract piece for me was pretty important. I would also say find, this is something you say, find the right voices. There’s a lot of different people out there doing ux, having all these different tips and tricks and skills and tools to offer. But I think you have to find the right fit for you. And for me that was you where you had worked with women and you had worked with people doing career transitions and you had been in this space and you knew what tools I needed and you were able to help me do the internal work to be in this point. So I guess I would say to a woman to find your people that are going to help you find a friend that you can ask any silly UX question with, but also find someone who will, is she like you did? And help you just know that you’re in the right space and help you work towards that, that you deserve it and that this space needs you. And if you want to be here, this is for you. Evelyn. It was so great To have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much. Meet you.

Ellen (37:33):

Hey if you enjoyed listening to this podcast you have to sign up for the You are techY email list. Imagine being in the tech job of your dreams. Join me to get the strategies training and never ending support to get hired. Sign up at youaretechy.com. That’s Y O U A R E T E C H Y.com. I’ll see you next time.