You are techY podcast

Ellen: 00:03
You are listening to the You are techY podcast, episode number thirteen.

Intro: 00:12
Welcome to the You are techY podcast where it’s all about growing in your techy-ness so you can find the tech job of your dreams and now your host technology learning coach, Ellen Twomey.

Ellen: 00:35
Welcome. I’m so excited to be with you here today. I want to talk to you about an exciting topic that I know everyone is interested in know your value by knowing our value and I’m going to talk about how, I mean in the marketplace we can have a much calmer interview process and salary negotiations by just understanding where our skills fit into the marketplace. So the first thing I want to talk to you about is detaching the market value from our human value. So I think that’s really an important point to kind of note. And you might think, well I would never get those confused, but actually I think we get them confused all the time when we start to talk about our salary, we think, Oh, I don’t know if I’m worth that. Has that ever come up in your brain like, hmm, I don’t….

Ellen: 01:32
I don’t know why anybody would pay that for me. And so it really is important to do some mind work on how the market values your skills. And I’m going to break that down very clearly for you here today and I think it’s going to help you because of course we all are highly valued as an individual and as a human and that value, there is no way to put a price on that value. Um, I like to use the example of mother Teresa, the value that she had to the world that had nothing to do with what she got paid, which was, you know, nothing. Her value to the world was enormous and huge and your value to the world is not at all defined by the salary that you receive. Those, those are different things. The salary that you receive is a reflection of what the marketplace values in regards to the skills that you have.

Ellen: 02:29
And there are definitely some intangible skills we’re going to talk about that, uh, that you can bring to the table, especially in tech that might be needed and valued higher. Um, but in general there, there are numbers out there. And by arming yourself with this information, you can definitely put yourself just at ease. I mean, it’s so awkward when someone’s like, so what type of salary were you looking for? And you know, you don’t know what they’re going to say. You don’t know. Um, what you’re not exactly sure what you want. It’s best to just arm yourself with that information and know what the skills you have generally are worth in the market. And then you go in with just a calmer certainty to you. And that doesn’t mean you, you either reasons we’re going to go through reasons why you might accept a lower offer or reasons you know, why you, why you might not accept a higher offer.

Ellen: 03:28
But just knowing that information can be, uh, um, a real calming sense to you. And I think that who doesn’t want more calm in the interview or salary negotiation process? Okay? So first thing you want to do is definitely work on detaching your market value from your human value. The second thing that you want to do, understand the market. Okay? So the type of organization that you work for, that’s definitely going to change what type of salary you receive. And so you want to use that information to the best of your ability. So you might say, I want to maximize my salary, I want to get paid the highest amount that I can, but I hate working for like really big companies. Okay, well if you work for a fortune 100 or fortune 500, you’re likely to see a higher salary, not 100%. True. Definitely opportunities where that isn’t the case, but you have to understand that that is for sure a place where salary can be maximized.

Ellen: 04:37
Um, if you work for a startup or a nonprofit, they tend to pay less, but you’re going to get a ton of different experience in different areas. And so that can be great for your career development, especially if you aren’t exactly sure what you want to do or you want to try different things. Um, startups and nonprofits can be really, they’re like, Oh, you can do that. Go for it. Now, it’s not always true for startups. So if a startup is funded, meaning that they’ve accepted venture capital or private equity investments, those startups will likely pay more. That’s why we see really high salaries in say, Silicon Valley. Um, they will also expect more and be quicker to make cuts if things aren’t working out. And so you might trade that experience for less job security and that higher salary. That’s totally fine. Just know and just go in knowing that and, and, but if, uh, if a startup is not funded, then I would say they’re going to generally be more like a nonprofit situation.

Ellen: 05:41
It’d be easier for you to get in with one of them because as an entrepreneur we need total help. But, um, and you’re going to get amazing, great experience, but you can’t expect them to pay what a fortune 100 or fortune 500 pays. They just don’t have the capital, uh, unless they are funded, as I mentioned. So you might just get, you know, so then maybe you go with a small business or a medium sized business. What’s that? I mean there’s, the range is huge. So a small business, a hundred people, still small business, but you might, that might be too many for you. You really want to think about what environment you’re going to thrive in and it’s gonna what’s gonna work for you? Do you want to be in client service or do you wanna be a consultant? Lots of organizations have those or are those that’ll give you a variety of different projects to work on as opposed to internal where you’re working all the time.

Ellen: 06:31
But you might increase your chances of traveling and how many days you would travel. Um, I like to encourage you to be open to a little bit of travel. It’s not the worst thing in the world, I promise. I understand completely. If you don’t want to travel every week and be away from your kids, I completely understand that. I just think that sometimes we tend to err on the side of I can never ever travel. And that’s a really tough thing in today’s job market with the flexibility, the rope to many opportunities to work from home. Um, the organizations tend to want a little flexibility in terms of travel. So I would encourage you if it, if an organization needs you to travel maybe 10% of the time, that’s a pretty low bar. Consider that you may enjoy a plane ride, you know, without providing snacks and constant entertainment to someone.

Ellen: 07:23
I know. I do. Um, one more thing about understanding the market is that one of the reasons it can be so hard to label a job is that with these larger organizations, they may have one, just like in a smaller organization, you’re doing many jobs. In a larger organization, you’re doing one job and there might be many layers. Let me give you an example. I’m a fortune 500 might have different UX personnel, like a several UX researchers, business analysts, UX designers, uh, UI designers, senior UX designers. You may find all of that. There would be a UX team. And so that’s where I’m product designers. That’s where some of these complicating factors come in and you’re like, I want to be a UX designer, but wait, what’s this? What’s that? That’s why in our coaching program, I want our coaching members to be so specific about defining their ideal job.

Ellen: 08:24
It’s not so much about the title, it’s about the work that you’re going to do. The title might change from organization to organization. Okay, so we want to understand the market and I only told you about one side of that, which is what is the organization that you might want to work for and who might tend to pay more or less based on that information. The other factor that comes in and understanding the market is what are your skills? So of course people pay more for better perceived, but I want to look at three different jobs and I’m going to use the generic job title and obviously this can, this can change. We’ll look at scrum, master, UX designer and then we’ll look at developers/Engineer and we’ll kind of talk about that. In general, we think, hey, engineers and developers, they get paid more.

Ellen: 09:20
And while that can be generally true, that’s not where the averages current currently listed on glassdoor reside. So I encourage you to do your own research. One thing that’s great about glassdoor is they always have new information coming in and coming up and you can see what skills are valued higher or lower. I do want to caveat this with, I know that it can be tempting to look at the highest possible salary and just decide that that’s where you want to go with it. But we’re going to talk about ranges and averages and one way that you can add a ton of value to your organization is by being amazing at your job. So if you find a job that you’re really well aligned to, I would say that’s your best bet in maximizing the salary that you are being amazing at your job.

Ellen: 10:14
So I want you to look at it through that lens and just consider that as you’re evaluating what works for you. To give you a sense of what we see on Glassdoor today and 2020 is actually a scrum master, has an average, has a higher average salary than either the UX designer or a developer. And that’s regardless if we use JavaScript developer or full stack engineer. I tried both because oftentimes the engineering, like if you say engineer as opposed to developer, you can find higher pay engineers tend to like the term engineer. Um, so that’s a little trick on that, but I’m looking across a few different areas. I’m going to look in North Carolina where I am in the Raleigh area. Scrum master average pay 109 K, that’s bad. Chicago, that’s where I used to live and it is a higher cost of living. So you’d think it would make more?

Ellen: 11:12
Not today. Today it’s at 106k, San Francisco 128k, New York 109k so same as New York in North Carolina are the same right now. What is up with that? Well, it’s scrum master is currently not valued as high in New York city. I don’t know why that is. Maybe they have a different term. Maybe they don’t use scrum as much. Whatever it is that’s, that’s what we’re looking at. So it’s the same as North Carolina, but obviously North York City has a much higher cost of living. So UX designer in Raleigh, it comes in around 73k again, the average design salary, Chicago 79, San Francisco 104, New York city 89. Now if we look at JavaScript developer or full stack engineer, actually we have identical amounts. So they are grouping those together. When you look for a job, I will encourage you to look at the full stack engineering listings.

Ellen: 12:17
Java script is a full stack engineering language. Now, um, that doesn’t mean that every full-stack engineering job, that’s what they want. But sometimes by looking at that title, we can help maximize our income. So the amounts for that Raleigh 79k, Chicago 78k, 101 for San Francisco and 82 for New York city. So that’s again just the average. That doesn’t tell you about whether when someone is advanced or, or if they’re just starting now. But I think it’s good information for you to understand what the averages and if you don’t see yourself at that amount or you don’t attach your market value to that rate, I want to encourage you to practice writing that number down regardless of where you live in the country. I think those give you a few ideas and you can adjust for where you live, but you can see there’s, it’s not always based on cost of living. There’s perceived value in those locations as well.

Ellen: 13:24
Again, I encourage you to write that number down. Go to Glassdoor yourself. Do the research that you’re looking at. Write that value down. Look at what it would be and if you’re just starting out and your entry level and that’s at a so you’re not looking at the average, write down what the, the entry level position would be, what, what would you want or what would be a high salary that you would take and what would be a lower one? Oftentimes we are caught off guard because we’ve never written something down and it’s just in our head and we’re confused and we’re just decide what is really acceptable to you based on the information that you found about what the market place values those skills at. Does that make sense? I hope that I’m explaining that well because again, so often we think, well, I not, I don’t need to make six figures.

Ellen: 14:16
That’s not, that’s not what I need. Well, it’s not about really what you need. It’s about do you have the skills and does the marketplace value those? By doing your research, you’ll have the number in your head when the time comes and you need it. That’s whether you need that information up front like a recruiter might ask for. They don’t even want to put you through to the next round. If you won’t accept kind of the range that they’re talking and that’s okay, but you’ll also have it in your head during negotiations. Maybe it’s a larger number than you plan. You’re thinking, wait a minute. That’s way outside. Why are they offering me this high value? You’re going want to consider that too.

Ellen: 14:53
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Ellen: 16:14
We want to consider what value the marketplace places on those skills and I just went through three different examples with you, but I want to encourage you that glass door is not the end all be all. It’s a great, great tool. I think it’s the best tool out there and if a new one comes along, I’ll tell you about that, but I want to go over three different ways that you can really be very confident that you have the information you need to make this decision and that’s whether you’re new to tech or you’ve been in a couple of years, you’re ready. Maybe you’re, you’ve been in a year, you’re ready for your first negotiation or you’re trying to level up big time. So here are three ways that you can learn what the market says your value is. Okay. Glass door is really a great answer and that’s why I went through it. You can use job postings and kind of get a sense for how well that aligns, but if you only use job postings, what’s tough about that? Is that sometimes the best information, the best job postings or or the most, um, the most accurate information, they aren’t going to post that until you get further into the interview process.

Ellen: 17:12
That’s my job postings I think are one way to look at it but I definitely wouldn’t use that as your only sense of direction on what the average salary is. The second way that you can learn what your market value is is through networking peers and talking to people who have nothing to gain from supplying you this information. I’m going to repeat that because that’s an important component. You want to talk to people who don’t have anything to gain by telling you the information you’re asking. Now it might feel awkward and I am not encouraging you to say, Hey, so Susie, I see that you’re a UX designer. What do you make? That’s definitely not what I’m saying. Try this. Susie, I’m thinking of going into UX, but I really want to understand what’s the market rate for like an entry level position and then I also want to know what’s the trajectory like?

Ellen: 18:15
Where can I hope to get to one day? I’ve checked with glassdoor, but now I’m surveying people I know in the area. What would you say your impression is of a common entry level salary or the ceiling for this position? That’s a really non-offensive way to say it and if Susie’s a UX designer, she might offer up what her salary is, but it’s her specific salary isn’t totally relevant. Her impression of where the salary range is, it’s very important because she’s going to be in that range so you’ll know, Hey, this is good solid information and if it’s someone who lives near you or lives in the location you’re looking for a job, that’s going to be some solid information. So I want to strongly encourage you to talk to friends or even connect with people on LinkedIn and just say, Hey, I’m looking for advice in my career.

Ellen: 19:08
Can we have a conversation? You can still ask that question in a really non-offensive way to say, Hey, I’m looking to make sure I know the right number and just as long as you’ve kind of cited that you’ve already done your research on glass door, because that’ll be the first thing you’ll say. They’ll say, well, I don’t really know, but go to glassdoor. So if you’ve done that already and you’re saying, I really just want to kind of know what you think, then you’ll get that information and don’t argue with them. Just whatever they say, write it down. Decide if you think they’re credible source. If you do that with five people, you’ll get a pretty good sense of what the accurate, yeah, there might be someone that’s totally off fine or there may be someone you just don’t, you don’t align with at all.

Ellen: 19:49
Eliminate the information they give you and if you get five sources, you have that ability and you have the information you need without just kind of latching onto that first person who tells you something which come on. We all have to, we all want to just do that. Well, I talked to this one person one time, they said it. We don’t want to do that because we don’t want to do that when they say negative things and we don’t want to do that when they’re giving us the information we want to hear, okay, so to really understand your value, go to glassdoor, then network with peers and ask them what they think the salary ranges. The third way to understand your market value and really just to dig into this concept a little more is that you need to get your information from more than one source. So here’s a common situation. You finally get your first interview. You go through the process, you, they ask how much you’re looking for. You tell them their amount, your amount, and they’re like, Oh my gosh, you are so out of range. We could, you’ll never make that. I really want to encourage you to ignore that human.

Ellen: 20:56
Not no one person can tell you what your value is. If you start hearing the same thing over and over again. Now you might be looking at it being accurate to the market, but really looking at it from that perspective of I’m going to give it a shot and let’s see then, but going through it over and over again to see where you land. That’s really the way to know for sure. And if people, if let’s say you want to make 70 and people are telling you that really your skills are at 50 maybe you just need to increase your skills. Maybe that’s the way to overcome that frustration. Another way to kind of clear that gap is to get better at communicating your intangibles. So you might need more technical skills or you might not need to just explain to them, Hey listen, I know I’m a developer and I’m pretty new, but here’s the thing I’m really easy to work with.

Ellen: 21:51
I communicate well and I learned super fast, so I understand that you might see my value in one way, but here’s why I’m perceiving it this other way. By explaining what the value is, you’re really helping them to understand, Hey, this person isn’t shooting. Just taking a shot in the dark of like, Hey, maybe they’ll pay me this. And then finally, if you keep hearing any answer that you don’t think is accurate, I want to question are you looking in the right place? So let’s go back to understanding the market and organizations. Are you trying to get a salary at a nonprofit or a non-funded startup? And that’s more of a fortune 100 salary. Consider that instead of just saying, Oh my gosh, all these people are telling me my value is this. And I think it’s that. I want you to look for all the other reasons why you might be hearing that. And then eventually you might need to recalibrate. And, and those are ways that you can clear that gap of where, where you are and what you want.

Ellen: 22:55
All right, let’s finish up here with when you should accept less. And then I want to talk about how to add more value to your organization. If you are making a salary that’s less than you are. Okay. So we’ve been talking about averages a lot. But here’s the thing. I know there’s nothing average about you because you’re putting in the work and you’re here listening to what it takes to be better in your, your job, in your skills, so you are definitely not average and you need to understand that and believe that going into an interview and asking for a salary. Now if you’re entry level, that’s fine entry level ranges, you’ll be at the high end because you’re someone who is definitely putting in extra time and effort to be amazing at your job. But I want to talk to about times that you may just decide to accept less.

Ellen: 23:50
I think that by playing out these scenarios ahead of time, you’ll know, Hey, they offered me less, but I’m still excited and here are some really great reasons of why you might accept less. There might be more, but these are some solid reasons of why you might decide to choose a job that is offering you less money, um, than you desire. Okay, let’s go through though. There are three of them. The first example is when you’re new, so it’s totally fine to accept less. If you’re looking at an entry level position and you even if you have previous skills that are helpful and you can leverage, you might just want to say I’m new and I’m trying to get in the door and I’ll take whatever they, whatever I can get, I’m getting in the door. What I want to encourage you with that one is have a one to two year plan because if you get in the door at a low rate, what is your ability to level up in that area?

Ellen: 24:52
Okay, so a second time where you might accept less is if you just fall in love with this company and the way that it will work for your life. So your quality of life is just huge and that’s amazing. I don’t want you to feel bad about valuing an amazing quality of life. That can be a huge value. I just want you to be careful because there are a lot of great companies that offer great quality of life and still a high salary, so you don’t always have to choose. And frequently the moms in our group think that that’s, that’s the way it has to be. That if it’s a great quality of life, then it is going to be a lower salary. And I want to really challenge you on that, but sometimes you can make that choice. Uh, I just want to make sure that you’re not thinking that’s always the case.

Ellen: 25:47
The third thing that, the third reason you might want to accept less than your desired salary is if the trajectory of the organization or with the skill set, the trajectory of your career is significantly better off. So maybe you get in at 50, that’s not what you want, but you’re in at 50, but you know what, you can rise to 100k pretty quickly. Maybe you can, um, ask your employer during, not during the interview process, but during the negotiation process. That’s an important part. We, till they offer you the job, you might be able to say, Hey, this is really not what I want. I’m, I’m, the salary is lower than I expected, but I’m so excited about your organization. Would you consider, I accept this lower salary, but in six months after you see how amazing I am and how much value I add to your organization, you consider raising my salary to a rate, whatever more, more in line with what I want.

Ellen: 26:52
That’s a great way to get people super excited about working with you. They’re like, wow, she has a ton of confidence in her skills. Uh yeah, we will give you a review in six months. You know, you never, you never know unless you ask. And even if they say no, we won’t do that. They will still love you for asking if you do it the right way. Okay. So those are the three reasons why you might consider accepting less. And again, I challenge you with number two, why not have a great quality of life and make a high salary? But I want to finish up here with, are there more ways to add value, challenging you to ask yourself, are there ways that you can add value leveraging your previous skills? So we definitely need to build our tech portfolio. We need to build our tech skills, have the right skills in the arsenal, but don’t forget that the slate is not white clean. If you say took a few years off to raise your kids, the work you did before still shows and proves that you are capable and competent. Let’s finish up here by discussing how you can add more value to your employer so that when it comes to the range of potential salaries you are looking at the high end.

Ellen: 28:17
Can you introduce them to someone who would potentially bring in more business? Don’t be too overt with this one. Just make some subtle introductions. When you see alignment with maybe a potential customer of your employer and you will be seen as someone who has great connections. This is a great way to leverage your previous experience, your existing network, and just show your organization, Hey, I can add value in a lot of different ways. You can also take a course, get a certification or attend a conference that’s going to bring you more knowledge, enhance your network and give you valuable credentials. You should be thinking about doing that. At least one of those every year, maybe more.

Ellen: 29:04
Okay. And finally, the way that you can use your previous skills and your personality to really add more value, this is going to sound so simple, but I want you to trust me on this one. If you are enjoyable to work with, you will be more valuable and that might not seem high valuable and it’s definitely not enough by itself. But if you combine it with those tech skills, this is definitely the cat’s Meow who wants to work with someone they can’t stand. And this is rampant in technology. It’s a huge reason why I’m here doing this work today because it is highly valuable for you to just be a pleasant person. And none of us are perfect all the time. I totally get that. But that’s a lot different than someone who comes in and everyday they’re just out to show everyone how smart they are and how dumb other people are.

Ellen: 30:06
Nobody wants to work with someone like that. So if you come in and you have the skills and you’re really a pleasant person, which I’ve met so many of the moms in our group, you guys are awesome. I would love to work with you. And I think that you don’t understand that that’s actually a skill and a value, a value add to an organization that people will pay for. They will pay to not have to work with jerks. It takes so much more effort and focus and patience to work with someone who is a pain in the butt. It’s just easier and less stressful to work with someone who’s pleasant and like is enjoyable and just gets the job done without all the drama. Honestly, if you are a hiring manager, who would you pick? So don’t underestimate that and don’t change who you are to try to get a job. Just use that amazing personality that you have. If you combine that with the right tech skills, you will be adding huge value to your organization and I guarantee that that’s going to show up in the salary line. So I hope that know your value has been helpful to you. Thank you so much for being with me here today and I look forward to seeing you next time.

Ellen: 31:27
Hey, if you enjoyed listening to this podcast, you have to sign up for the You are techY email list. Imagine being in the tech job of your dreams. Join me to get the strategies, training and never ending support to get hired. Sign up at youaretechy.com that’s Y-O-U-A-R-E-T-E-C-H-Y dot com. I’ll see you next time.