You are techY podcast

Ellen (00:00):

You are listening to the You are techY podcast, episode number 102.

Voiceover (00:10):

Welcome to the You are techY podcast where it’s all about growing in your techy-ness. So you can find the tech job of your dreams. And now your host, technology learning coach, Ellen Twomey.

Ellen (00:26):

Hey moms, are you trying to break into tech? Are you wondering what skills you really need to get hired and how those skills can be worth $45 an hour? Not that $25 an hour you thought when you first started thinking about going back to work? If so, then the You Are Techy membership is for you. Our combination of courses, coaching and community, come with a mentor support. You need to keep moving forward into your tech career. It’s like no other membership available. We have the exact skills employers are looking for. You learn how to maximize your income with portfolio ready skills that hiring managers are seeking, not to mention the steps you can skip. So you don’t find yourself down that endless tech learning rabbit hole. Join me as we walk you step-by-step through the getting hired process in tech. Sign up at youaretechy.com. That’s Y O U A R E T E C H Y.com. I can’t wait to see you in our membership.

Ellen (01:22):

We have a special treat on the podcast today. I’ll be interviewing two lovely ladies from a company I’ve been a fan of for some time. Now it happens to be located in my home state of Michigan. I can’t wait to introduce you to Helen Hagos and Lisa Ho, so they can tell you all about Menlo Innovations. Menlo is led by CEO and self-proclaimed Chief Joy Officer Richard Sheridan. He’s written Joy, Inc.: How We Built a Workplace People Love and Chief Data Officer: How Great Leaders Elevate Human Energy and Eliminate Fear. Both of which describe the unique culture of Menlo innovations. Helen Hagos is a software developer at Menlo who has worked on nearly every stack in the pile while serving clients for the last five years, Helen was born in Ethiopia. She has an undergraduate degree from Addis Ababa University in electrical and computer engineering, as well as a master’s degree from the University of Michigan in computer science and engineering.

Ellen (02:22):

Lisa is a project manager who spent the entirety of her career at Menlo after graduating from the University of Illinois in general engineering, technology and management, Helen, and Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa:  It’s great to be here. Thanks for having us. 

Ellen: I’m really excited to talk to you both. I have been following Menlo innovations for some time. I’ve read, oh, the richest books, Helen, let’s start with you. Tell us a bit about your career journey and how did you end up at Menlo and then what it’s been like working there for the last five years. 

Helen (02:59):

So as you mentioned, I’m from Ethiopia originally. So I did my undergraduate degree in electrical and

computer engineering at Addis Ababa University. And after that ended up moving to Ann Arbor, Michigan for my masters at U of M. So after I graduated, I was really interested in the mental health space and wanted to work in that area. So I ended up working at the University of Michigan public health school with a research group, working on the data platform that they maintain that after that giving that, you know, starting off my career in a new, and I was the only tech person on that team. It felt like it was, you know, a direction where I needed a lot more mentorship and collaboration to be able to grow in my career. So I was looking for jobs and it just so happened that I went to a meetup group in Ann Arbor called Ccoffee House Quarters. That was the one. And only time I went to that meeting and met someone who used to work for Menlo. He announced that they were hiring. I approached him and just ask what Menlo was about and the way he just lit up talking about it, how much they care and are always, you know, helping each other out just was that clue that told me, okay, this is a place where I can get the mentorship and the collaboration I was interested in. So I applied and you know, I’m still hanging out five years later.

Ellen (04:16):

And my students, I always make the joke. They’re going to think I slipped you a 20 because I talked so much about the importance of going to meet ups. And sometimes it only takes one. One of my students got hired from one meetup. I got hired from one meetup and you never know who you’re going to meet. So I think that a great story. And I love that you said mentorship, because I know that’s a big thing for a lot of the people that I talk to, they really are looking for mentorship. And I think that it’s lacking in a lot of places. So it’s so awesome that you have it at Menlo.

Helen (04:43):

Yes, absolutely. The pairing model that we have just helps someone grow so much in such a short amount of time. Right. We can have someone who’s been in the industry for 10 years sitting next to someone who’s been, you know, just fresh out of college and helping them understand what’s going on and follow through. And you learn from each other in both directions, not only, you know, junior to senior, but vice versa. Right.

Ellen (05:08):

That’s beautiful. Okay. We’re going to definitely talk about that more. Lisa, can you tell us, what drew you to Menlo after graduation and then prompted you to stay for 14 years? That’s pretty rare in today’s world. And I’d also love if you could touch on, motherhood has played a role in your career decisions.

Lisa (05:24):

Yeah. Yeah. So coming to Menlo innovations, I wanted to be a project manager and finding a job as a project manager straight out of college is not easy. Most of the jobs I was looking at you’d have to have five years of experience already, or like previous job history and that role. So I’m surprised pleasantly that Menlo would take a chance on me and even let me interview without having any experience. I took one project management class in college and that was about it. So that was one of the things that drew me to Menlo is that they would even let me try. And when I started the job, just like Helen was saying, I was pairing with other more experienced project managers. And I got that mentoring when I first stepped into the role. I mean, I have one computer science class, my background enough about it.

Lisa (06:14):

So I was stepping into a new role and industry, but because I was surrounded by a team that was helping me, I didn’t feel like I was just thrown into the deep end. I felt like I’ve got people helping me out. And I got to pair with different project managers to see their styles and how they worked. And they kind of helped me and all of the developers. I worked with Paul Romey as a project manager. And I would say, what’s kept me there over the years because yes, I am 14 years and still going strong, the flexibility and the ability to learn. Like I’m constantly learning on different projects, getting to build relationships with all different kinds of people. And I feel like I’m part of a team where we all care about each other. It feels like this is my family. And you asked about how as a mother, what keeps me here.

Lisa (07:06):

One thing that was really special for me is I have two young sons, a six-year-old and a three-year-old. And after taking three months maternity leave with each of them, I brought them to work with me full time from three to six months. And that was huge that in those early months of their life, that I could be with them all the time, I cut back on my hours. So I could take care of them also while I’m at work. But it was such a joy and a comfort to me that they were there. And also they were getting exposed to all the people, the energy around them. I still remember my older son being held by one of the developers and I’m like, oh, he’s getting his first programming lesson. It was special. It was very special for me and the team enjoyed having babies around. And it was such a gift that I could do that.

Ellen (07:58):

And Lisa, just for everyone who’s out there, why were you able to do that at Menlo? Cause it’s not just you.

Lisa (08:06):

Yes, no, it wasn’t. It wasn’t just me. Which actually was helpful for me as a mom too. I’m like a  first time mom, I have no idea what I’m doing. But before that I had already seen other moms bring their babies into work. Then my coworker, Emily, especially like she would help me, like, I mean, pairing with her and she’d be like, Hey, let me take all of those. You can eat your lunch or something like that. And so yeah, Menlo, we run experiments and there was a team member years back who said, you know, I don’t have a daycare lined up for my daughter yet. And rich said, well, why don’t you bring her into the office? So we ran that experiment, tried it out and it actually worked really well. So yeah, I think over 20 babies have spent time in the office over the years.

Ellen (08:47):

So amazing. And I love the way you’re just like, yes, I brought my baby to work and I was like, he said, no, that’s not normal. It’s so beautiful. Like for me as a mother of five, I mean, that’s just an amazing Testament to the work life. I mean, people talk about work-life balance. I’m like, no, that is a great example. Because like you said, you just ran an experiment and if it didn’t work okay, then you’ll figure it out. And yeah. So I mean, that kind of leads to my next question is like, tell us about Menlo and what makes it different. And in your work, there are different. And so the babies is one thing, but yeah, just whoever wants to go, just comment on, you know, really what makes Menlo a different culture and a unique culture

Helen (09:29):

For me, it’s how intentional the culture is. So most of the things that we have in place are not because of, you know, some defined policy that we have to follow. It just grew out of experiments. We want it to do something. So we tried it out and if it works it’s around, if not it doesn’t. So, you know, having this work-life balance, not only by allowing, you know, you to bring your babies to work, but we strictly sort of have 40 hour work weeks as a developer. That is a pretty big deal. When you have a deployment, right. You’re supposed to come in through your weekends nights. We don’t have any of that. So being intentional to how we communicate with our clients and how we manage the team and everything in between, I think for me is a big difference at Menlo. That is not really many places. Yeah. What would you say to Lisa?

Lisa (10:26):

Yeah, one thing that stands out to me is there’s a book called five dysfunctions of a team by Patrick Lensioni. And he talks about the five things that are really important to building a strong team and the bottom, the foundation is trust and building trust. And that’s one thing that I see, there’s so many opportunities and so many ways in which we build trust with each other, through pairing with each other, through getting like Goldeneye, getting paired together, to do this podcast today, or getting thrown into work with someone to lead a tour together. I love that there’s so many opportunities to work across rules with different people on different projects. And it’s through that pairing and working together that we’re building trust. So that’s one thing that really stands out to me. And another thing is that we’re a smaller organization. There’s so many opportunities to help out in areas that might not be or area of expertise, but something that you’re passionate about. So I have no background in finance or accounting, but over the years I’ve learned to work in our financial projections. I also love to write and sketch in my free time. And I’ve gotten to do some times and write some articles for Menlo. So those are things that are exciting for me that I get to take some things that I’m passionate about. And maybe usually we do outside of work and bring them into what I do at Menlo. So I would say it’s a very there’s opportunities here. And if you’re interested in and you see an area where we can improve something, you raise your hand and say, hey, I want to help out in this area.

Ellen (11:53):

 That’s awesome. That’s so great. And it’s so funny, you talked about that because my husband works for Pat. So my bookshelf is like, there’s like five of his books right there, five dysfunctions because we don’t have any on hand because we pass them all out. But yeah, that building of trust, you know, is, so Helen, you mentioned the intentionality. If you don’t have an intentional culture to build that trust, it just erodes. Then there, then there is no trust. Like you even have to build trust with the pairing you were talking about, but also with your client that, Hey, we actually don’t just work all hours endlessly to deploy when you want.

Ellen (12:45):

Right. So I think that’s, I think that is special and just a great testament to the culture. It is very unique. Like Helen, you haven’t said we worked 40 hours. That’s so special. Like it’s, it sounds so silly, but like it’s really special. It’s special. Oh, you mean you have a life outside of work. Yes. So that’s great. I love it. I think that’s very, that’s super interesting. So has speaking of the intentional culture and Lisa, you mentioned writing Helen. I actually first came across your name when I read a blog that you wrote and you wrote that with coworker, Brittany Morton was also from Menlo and it’s entitled “Building a Culture that Keeps Women in Stem”. So I’ll link to the article in the show notes, but tell our listeners, what are some of the highlights in the blog and then what is it about Mendel’s culture that makes it a great example of keeping women in technology?

Helen (13:39):

That’s a great question. So the article got in, ended up getting written when one of the Melno founders  asked us, what is the experience of women in stem at Menlo and my peer partner, Brittany at the woman. And I really had to pause and think about that because it was a non-issue to be honest with you, that was sort of what we felt. So we have to really think about, wait, it’s not that, you know, the problem does not exist in the world. We’ve been there, we’ve experienced it. As you know, we went to school and did other jobs. But what we realized that Menlo is that there are these cultural values that we’ve put in place that have sort of counter measured, these different biases that we have. So we reflected on an article that was written on Harvard business review that says major, you know, lists five biases that are pushing you even outside of the stem career.

Helen (14:31):

And some of the things are, you know, the maternity wall when you have a baby having to miss so much work and not being able to participate. So we have that, you know, bringing your baby to work while you’re, while you’re continuing what you do and not missing out as a countermeasure in our career, in our culture. Another thing would be, you know, not being able to support you, getting the support by seniors at Menlo, we have the pairing system that we mentioned. We also have this motto where we say, you have to make it, their partner look good. So as a women in stem, where we’re usually asked to prove ourselves time and time again, your pair partner, watching out for your not just bare partner, all of your team members, looking out for you and making you look good and making you feel supported, pounders that fear or having to, you know, carry that stereotype threat with you. So what we sort of realized as we wrote the article was that instead of these main trainings and things like that, the place at Menlo that we handled this issue was just by having these core values in place and addressing that people have different needs, right? If you’re a woman, you might have a different need and you have room, you know, we have room in the team for you where we can make it work with the constraints that you have was the best way that we’ve come through that at Menlo.

Ellen (15:55):

I mean, all of that is brilliant. I love the way that you compared it to the HBR article and like really took it line by line. And then now I’ll say embarrass you a little bit that I actually reached out to Helen and said, Hey, do you want to come on the podcast? And she said, I could do, but you know, I know your topic. And I think Lisa would be great to come on with me. And we do this peer programming thing. And the, the humility of that is so beautiful that you were like, yeah, I would love to do it and let’s do it. Let’s all do it together. And I thought it was a great idea to really be key a piece of the pair programming, but also to show your humility. So I think it’s awesome because it just seems like both of you seem so comfortable in where you are and in how you talk about where you work.

Ellen (16:41):

And yet what you’re saying, I know to my listeners so foreign, because it sounds if I hadn’t read Rich’s books, it would sound so foreign to be like, wait, we bring our babies to work. Wait, we go home at the end of the week and we’re not deploying until Sunday night. And that is such a beautiful thing, because that was a challenge for me when I was, when I wanted to return to the workforce, I was like, yeah, but because I had been a developer, you know, but if they need to deploy and I have to get the kids from school, then how do I, what do I do? Like I remember having that stress in my life that, you know, there are solutions out there to those problems, but I remember that was a problem for me. Okay. I, so, so people are like, oh, I love your culture. How do I get in? So let me ask you this. What are your two secret weapon interview questions, Lisa?

Lisa (17:28):

So, yeah. Interesting question, because we don’t do what you would think of as a traditional interview. And we don’t ask interview questions. The way that our interview process works is looking to model how we actually do the work at Menlo. So we are looking first primarily for a cultural fit and we call this looking for kindergarten skills. We’ve talked so much about the pairing is a huge part of what we do. So we want to interview and see how do you work with others? Wow, that’s a big part of what you would do at Menlo. So our first part of our interview process is what we call an extreme interview, where we gathered together, maybe 40 different people that are looking to interview. Now we’ve since been able to move this to virtual, run this virtually, but we pair you with another interview candidate and we give you an exercise that would stimulate an activity that you might do at night.

Lisa (18:21):

If you are a developer, you might be paired with another developer interview candidate and ask them to estimate path for a potential project. And there’s a Menlo and among most the member who observes the interactions between you and your peer partner. And they’re looking to see you worked at the speed of your pair partner, do you help them? Are you listening to your peer partner? Are you sharing the responsibilities and the tasks with them? Are you able to share? What’s what you’re thinking, what’s in your head, all of those kinds of things are skills that you need to be able to work with. Well, with another individual. So we observed them beginning about 20 minutes for that activity. And then we repeat and do this again, two more times with world war period, with a different person and a different Menlo team member, observing the actions, because we’re looking to see, I mean, when I did this process, I’m assuming that’s it.

Lisa (19:17):

You know, I got my answers prepared for what is your greatest weakness and how do I track all of that? So this, you can’t really prepare for it, but I liked how Menlo it’s three different observation opportunities though. We also look to see where maybe they were really nervous. We struggled in the beginning, but how did they do by the time they got to their third period? So that’s the initial interview and it’s really not looking at your resume. It’s we might use that a little bit to help screen. Cause we get, if we get so many resumes, but ideal, really we’re looking at, are you doing the pairing with another individual?

Ellen (19:53):

And you have just to be there. So two things jumped out at me. Number one, they’ve been doing this since you started with this, you know, like 14 years ago, at least 14 plus years. And then the other thing that you said that was interesting to me, so three different Menlos observed. And are they all like, who are they? Are they just, they’re not my, oh my gosh. And so then they do give feedback. How do you figure out how to hire that out? Are they,

Lisa (20:30):

How do they get you that?

Helen (20:32):

Absolutely. So on that first round of the interview, the extreme interview event, by the end, after all of the candidates leave, we all get together. Everyone who did the observations and we do a voting system based on each candidate’s performance that we see. So we, you know, have a system to sort of shorten the length of time that it takes to decide whether we do a thumbs up sideways or thumbs down decision, deciding whether we want to bring back the person we observed. So if all three men alone who observed the candidates say thumbs up, let’s bring them back. That means we don’t have to discuss it. It’s unanimous. They are getting invited back. 

Ellen (21:13):

You actually don’t discuss it three thumbs up. You’re like that, that we walk away.

Helen (21:18):

Yup. Same with three thumbs down. If it’s unanimous. No, that we don’t think this person’s going to be a good fit. That’s another one that we don’t discuss. If it’s sideways or mixed, that means, you know, let’s share our observations and discuss. And then after the three people bring up what they observed, then the whole team that has been listening and gets to vote, whether we want to invite the candidate back or not, it would’ve been a few hours. You know, we’ve done that decision of screening or running the interview and deciding,

Lisa (21:51):

And I would add to what’s influencing your thumbs up, thumbs down or sideways in what you’re sharing with people is your observations, what you thought. It’s not. I feel like I like this person because it is, I saw that this person noticed that their peer partner was struggling and they really tried to help them come along. So you’re identifying behaviors that you feel would need someone, a good care partner or not.

Ellen (22:19):

But I think that’s fascinating. So then Helen, when they bring them back, what does that mean to be brought back? So that’s the first, well, really the first screen is in resumes and you invite people to be extremely. And then, so that’s the second part. And then they come back and we’ll just coming back,

Helen (22:36):

Coming back means coming for a one day interview, a page interview with time

Helen (22:48):

And you get paid because you’re actually going to be working on client work. So this is a real project. You get to work with Emma, [inaudible] on, you know, whatever role you’re applying for. So let’s say if I’m a candidate, you know, I would come in here with a developer for the first half of the day. And then during lunch, I get to meet other Menlonians to just have that of other girls, to have my questions answered and just give people a chance to interact with other people. And in the afternoon I get paired with a different Menlo developer. So that way we are sort of mimicking what we do. So at Menlo we care and we rotate here at different times and we rotate project. So when you are switched off from one project and moved to another one, you have to be able to bring to that context for work.

Helen (23:37):

So we’re not gauging, you know, that they know everything about the task that they’re doing and they’re masters at it. Not really. It’s just, how do you communicate? Because that’s a big part of what you need to do as a Menlonian. So do they communicate what they did in the morning, you know, to whoever is working with them in the afternoon and so that they can continue making progress on the card. So that’s what a one day would look like. And at the end of that day, the two people who paired with that person and the people who interacted with that person doing lunch, we’ll sort of have a get together and discuss what their impressions were and whether they want to invite the person to the third round of the interview. Okay. And then the third round is typically at a trial period.

Helen (24:25):

So it’s another paid gig and that’s also where it can range from, you know, shortened amount of time. These people have constraints up to three weeks where this time around you get to pair with someone for a longer period. So let’s say in the typical sense where it’s a three week period with one Menlonian for a week and the other one for the second weekend, the third week, the T here is to be able to see how you respond to feedback. We provide feedback at the end of each week and we sort of see how you carry that forward in the consecutive weeks. Because another key component of the culture is getting, you know, feedback and being able to process that and grow as a team member. So you’re still going to be continuing to work on, you know, client projects. This gives you a chance to interact with greater of members of the team as well as clients sometimes. So we, you actually get to do the work and see if you like it. I personally appreciated this so much when I was interviewing because a lot of other companies, I have to go look up the reviews on Glassdoor to see what it was like here. I got to test it out. And if I don’t like it, I couldn’t walk either. Either love it or I don’t. Yes, exactly. So that’s the final round.

Lisa (25:49):

One other interesting thing about that too, is part of that trial period, the team is also assessing if they are going to bring that person onto the team, what, what pay level, what level would they be brought in. So the team makes the decision about your level as well. And everybody’s level is posted for everyone in the team to see. And the team decides, when does somebody move up a level? Do we ever have to let someone go? Those are all team decisions. 

Ellen (26:17):

What do you mean when you say team? 

Lisa (26:20):

There are multiple teams, some subset of all of Menlo. So in the case where right now we have somebody going through this trial process, there are multiple different developers that are paired with that person throughout their trial process. And they will be part of making a decision along with other people that have interacted with this person as they’ve been in their trial period. So it’s not, we can’t involve every single person, but it’s a good subset across senior team members, newer team members across different roles.

Ellen (26:51):

So do you have any formal, I mean, do you have managers over, I know you’re a project manager, but just someone who manages a group of people or does that not really happen? 

Helen (27:04):

We are a flat organization.

Lisa (27:06):

But I think we’re all responsible for playing, watching out for each other, seeing how each other are doing, advocating for each other, giving each other feedback. And that’s, as you grow in seniority at Menlp, as you’re really looking at not just for you and what you’re doing, but okay, how are my peers doing? How can I help them along? And how do I help the project succeed to be a senior team member at Menlo means when you’re on a project, everybody else does better because you’re on a project that’s less than that. You, but what’s the impact and the influence that you’re having on others

Helen (27:41):

Back, it’s a negative thing for you to just Excel and Excel on your own. We call that being a tower of knowledge, if on a project, I’m the person who has all the knowledge and I’m not putting in efforts to spread that around. That means I’m harming the team right by what if, what happens if I need a vacation? What happens if I get sick for an extended amount of time, that means we’re harming our clients by stopping their work. So that is actually a negative thing to just, you know, be the hero and move it along.

Ellen (28:13):

Right. It’s so contrary to the way most development houses work. That’s the crazy thing. That’s really breaking down a lot of barriers. I think there are, that’s a lot of the challenge of tackling even trying to get hired in tech. And it’s like, well, I don’t know what that one person knows. And then they take it on themselves. But really what you’re saying is no, that’s your fault. If you know everything and no one else knows it, you’re responsible for that. Yeah. And we’re going to, and then the other thing is like, we’re going to hire the people that we work with. So if we don’t like them, that’s our fault. Very ownership, culture that’s. So that is so amazing. I also noticed, I mean, cause you both have a pretty long tenure in this industry, but think about the intentionality of the interview process, how long it is and how intentional it is. But then it leads to people. I mean, it’s not a, do you have an average tenure at memo? If you do have most people work there five or 10 or 15 years.

Lisa (29:10):

Yeah. Like last time a couple of years ago we looked at tenure and it was something like four to five years. But the industry for developers is significantly less than that. Yeah. I think it depends on the, yeah, the, I would say there’s what, like a quarter of the people that had been here five years or more.

Ellen (29:34):

Awesome. Well, at least this one I thought was a good one for you, but can you tell us like one amazing thing that this culture has allowed you to be able to do maybe even outside of bringing your babies to argue?

Lisa (29:48):

Yeah. So I’ve always wanted to visit New Zealand. I played rugby in college and my coaches were all from New Zealand and that’s where I got introduced to the country and my husband and I, we went on a two month vacation, took like a sabbatical and to go to New Zealand, to Hong Kong for his sister’s wedding and Australia and Korea. So it was just this like thing that, you know, I used to think like, oh, I had to have done a trip like that, like right after college, before starting a new job. But it was a gift that I could take some time off. Like I obviously plan for it with other team members. And also because of the pairing, another project manager, you know, really took over the projects that I had been working on while I was out. And that whole time on it. But too, it was your vacation. There’s no one checking email. We’re very adamant like when you’re on vacation, you’re on vacation. So that was, yeah, that was a special treat that I could do that.

Ellen (30:43):

It sounds really, I mean, when you say that and I’ve heard amazing things about New Zealand, is it beautiful?

Lisa (30:48):

Oh yeah.

Ellen (30:51):

So I mean, what I hear from you is like, I’ve been able to learn, I’ve been able to grow. I was able to take a sabbatical, go on this amazing trip. I was able to have my children, like you’ve lived your life while working in this industry. It’s not like you gave your life to do it. That’s kind of my, like that jumps out for me. And that’s a strong endorsement. Helen, do you feel

Lisa (31:15):

One of the things that’s going to say? And it’s like, there’s such a love for the company that like, yeah, I didn’t have to give up my lunch to work here, but it’s like, when I’m here, like I’m giving like why everything about it? And cause I love, yeah.

Helen (31:31):

I mean, just to echo what she was saying, I feel like I don’t feel like a resource admin low. I feel human first. If that makes sense. I think my coworkers see me as a person first. And I think with that comes that desire as Liza was saying, just wanting to, you know, contribute as much as you can and wanting to support others and help that move forward.

Ellen (31:55):

I think that’s beautiful. So that, I mean, that leads into my next question about Rich and he’s, you know, your CEO has written books on joy. He believes in joy at work. He’s called himself, the chief joy officer. And so I’m curious, it sounds like in your answers sound pretty obvious, but I’d like to hear like, from your perspective, what’s it like to work for Rich? And do you feel like you’re joyful at work?

Lisa (32:15):

Yeah. I say one thing that bursted out to me about Rich and me and him, like he notices everyone. He like, when you’re talking to him, you feel like, oh, I matter, like I’m important. And also his passion for what he does. Like he just exudes and I mean, he’s given many tours of Menlo. We do brief Offer tours of our culture and how we work. So before the pandemic, we had lots of people come in, person from around the world. Now they’re virtual and we do free tours twice a week, often led by Rich. And I will sometimes sit in on a tour and every tour feels like it’s his first time. And he’s so excited, even though he’s done this, like just as excited and just as you know, enjoying doing it, like he’s someone that you can want to follow because he’s so passionate and he cares.

Ellen (33:19):

That’s awesome. What do you think, Helen?

Helen (33:21):

I want to echo that last bit. That Lisa said that stood out to me to hear not only about the business than about the team. And I think there’s that trust that you get and you mentioned rich, but you know, one of the other co-founders James cobalt, he does the same thing where, you know, you work at mellow it’s that whether you’re, you know, like a year in or 10 years in you are trusted with what you write, like we can have discussions with clients. We are allowed to make decisions. And as long as you have an idea, you know, you raise your hand up and bring it up and you are, you can try that out and beat heard. And I think that’s a pretty big deal to be able to do in a company, just come in and Diener, get going with your ideas right away. I don’t think that’s usually what you get at other companies on this and gates in New York city. We’ll go through a lot of processes.

Ellen (34:13):

Right. But you’re expected to show up and contribute from the beginning, regardless of your background. It’s not question, it sounds like you’re like, no, like what you said about being human, you’re seen as a human, you know, you show up. So do you feel like, I mean, you’ve been there five years. Do you feel like from when you started to now you’re listened to and in a similar way or

Helen (34:36):

I, yes. To be honest, yes. From the get-go everybody’s accessible to you, you know, even a month in, I felt like I could go to Rich. If I had something on my mind, I could go to Lisa. I had something up my mind and equally of course, you know, your relationships grow. You become closer friends with your coworkers as time progresses, but even from the baseline, that team shows you that they’re accessible to you.

Ellen (34:59):

And you can ask questions. Is that a welcome?

Helen (35:03):

Oh, absolutely. You could ask questions. One of the things we actually look out for on that three week interview I was mentioning earlier is for someone to be able to say, I don’t know and be curious,

Ellen (35:16):

I’m sorry. I don’t know, like what was the other piece

Helen (35:18):

And get curious. So it is actually important to ask questions because you know, you have to ask questions to know something. If you don’t come, you know, if you don’t ask questions and covered up, that’s going to be harder to grow right. With that lack of transparency. So that’s actually a big tenant.

Ellen (35:38):

I love it. Okay. Last question. I’m super excited to hear what you both have to say on this, because this has been, I mean, I think maybe getting a lot more resumes after this interview because I mean, the culture is so unique and special and I feel, I mean, after following it for so long, I’m so excited to, to, you know, have you guys on and to share this message and to hopefully inspire other cultures to embrace joy more. But speaking of these additional resumes that I think you’re going to be getting, I would love to hear what your advice is to women and especially moms who are considering a career in tech, but they may not be sure if they can do it or if they’re going to like it, or if it’s right for them, what advice would you give to them?

Lisa (36:18):

That’s a really good question. I think for me, when I first thought about a career and I was like, but I’m not like a computer person, you know, like that was my picture of like, I can do that. But for me as a project manager, it’s so much of it is the relationships and working with the team, listening, helping understand problems. Like I have to understand like, you know, to some extent the technical things that they’re working on, but for me, I, yeah, I think going into an asset I could do in the tech industry. Like I’m not that kind of person, but really I’m like, oh, I, I built up confidence over time and knowing like I have the team and developers to rely on for some of that real technical thing. But a lot of being a project manager at least is how are you building relationships with clients, working with them, understanding what they need.

Lisa (37:12):

Are you looking at the big picture of the project and all the details and working with the developers? It’s not like the tech piece is not the center of it. Like I saw that as a barrier, but it really wasn’t like the core is my mind. Do I have to understand all this technology stuff? No, I, it was okay that I didn’t have that. There’s a lot of things that I bring that compliment on the technical skills that the development team, I would say, don’t count yourself out if you’re like, I don’t have experience in tech industry.

Ellen (37:40):

Great advice. Great advice, Helen.

Helen (37:42):

I think for me, it would be, find somewhere where you can have that room to breathe and grow. I think when you’re new to the industry, if you go into a spot that just feels like, you know, it’s suffocating, you’re trying hard, but you’re not able to make progress. You’re overwhelmed. That can be very discouraging as a. So I think when you’re looking for us, at least, especially as a beginner, find a place that can help grow and let you discover what you’re interested in. Because I mean, my backyard was bullying, you know, computer science and computer engineering and you can go, they do things. But even through that, I pivoted so many times, right, from electrical to more computer inside, computer engineering, more hardware oriented. And then I changed my mind and what’s the software. So give yourself some room to be able to navigate that until you, what

Ellen (38:35):

You were completely interested in. Thank you. Thank you both so much. I enjoyed this conversation. I am so happy to have you on and thank you so much for being here and telling us about the Menlo culture.

Ellen (38:49):

Hey if you enjoyed listening to this podcast you have to sign up for the You are techY email list. Imagine being in the tech job of your dreams. Join me to get the strategies training and never ending support to get hired. Sign up youaretechy.com. That’s Y O U A R E T E C H Y.com. I’ll see you next time.